The great divide: reality versus church myth
Lorie Johnson printable version print page     Bookmark and Share
Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 11:37:19 AM EST
One of my friends on Live Journal had an interesting post in her blog yesterday. In it, she talked about a chilling conversation she had with some Christian friends of hers, and their perception of 'persecution' and what it means for the rest of us.
It is the casual conversations with friends and acquaintences that can sometimes be the most revealing about things. The stealthy tactics of the Dominionists (unless they're playing to their own) are well known, and it is their actions that truly speak for their intent. And it is their effect upon the vast numbers of people who go to churches that have been touched by their particular worldview that we should pay particular attention to.

My friend is Pagan, and she gave me permission to quote from her blog entry. The post was about a conversation she had with a couple that she knows that she simply calls "A" and "B". I'll let her take the stage now. All emphasis is in the original.

Now, I've known these folks for quite a while; I consider them friends. They are devout Christians, but not the hate-based kind -- they know I'm pagan, and have never given me a moment's hassle about it. Late Saturday night at the [science fiction] con[vention], I mentioned to B that we had a new bumper sticker I thought she'd like: "Religious freedom is measured by the distance between church and state."

And she said, "Well, you know, I don't think I agree with that."

I have to admit, I sort of freaked. I asked her why -- and it turns out that she's bought the whole right-wing "American Christians are SO PERSECUTED" lie hook, line, and sinker. I asked her to cite examples; she said she hears about this "all the time", but can't remember anything specific without being able to look it up. (Fair enough.) I asked her when was the last time she heard about someone losing their job, or the custody of their children -- or being tied to a fence in a howling blizzard -- for being Christian, and she said, "Well, there ARE other kinds of persecution, you know." [My husband] came in to back my arguments, and things got... sort of uncomfortable... for a while. (A, wisely IMO, stayed pretty much out of it.) We pointed out that invariably, when someone does a little fact-checking on one of these stories, it turns out that either the entire story has not been told, or that it was made up out of whole cloth . I mentioned things that have happened to people I know personally -- no FOAF stories -- when the wrong person found out they were pagan. I said that in a right-wing religious theocracy, being Christian would not save them when the pogroms came, not if they were the wrong kind of Christian (which I still believe them to be; the fact that they were at a con at all argues for that)... but by that time I'd already be dead, disappeared, or in a re-education camp somewhere being "adjusted".

So, it is clear that the various factions of the Christian far right have managed to penetrate their 'persecution' meme right into the minds of what my friend sees as the non-rabid Christian mindsets. Think about this for a moment. They don't have any specific examples, all they know is that they are being 'persecuted', and continue to believe this even after being presented with the fact that they indeed are not anywhere near being persecuted. But this is the key to their followership. If they continue to believe this, this belief makes them malleable to the far right, and that enforcement of the persecution may eventually make them unreachable by anyone rational.

My friend continues:

The whole conversation felt like a punch in the gut, and I've been a little depressed about it ever since. These are people I trusted, and they'd just indicated their willingness to support a government which will turn me into legal game. Moreover, these aren't faceless "right-wing Christian loonies". A and B are good, decent people who honestly believe that an overtly Christian government would be a GOOD thing. I'm pretty sure I understand why; they think such a government would be run by people more or less like them [emphasis mine], and don't realize that it's the hate-based faction which is grabbing for political power.

It is people like A and B who are going to deliver us into the hands of the Falwells and Robertsons. People who simply don't understand that, in supporting what they see as a Rockwell-esque "Christian America", they will end up electing a Christian Taliban. And I don't know what can be done about that. I'm a great believer in the power of one-on-one discussion to work people past their misconceptions; I've seen it happen. I wish this conversation hadn't dropped on me like it did, because I think I could have done a better job with access to references. But the betrayal aspect hit me very hard. I know there are people reading this who will understand why, from their own personal experiences.

My friend's feeling of betrayal is very real, and I have felt it too. It's hard to avoid the feeling that there's an invisible target reticule on you if you are a minority faith, or non religious.

It was the 'people like them' quote that got my attention. One of the means we can use to break through that barrier of disbelief and denial that rank and file Christians have erected is to emphasise and demonstrate as often and as pointedly as possible that the people who are feeding them these 'persecution' lines are not like them, and are in fact, manipulating them for their own ends. If we can reach out to these millions of "A's" and "B's" around the country, we can erode that illusion, and pull them out of lockstep with their leaders.

We have to deliver them from delivering us. That is the bottom line.




Display:
"they think such a government would be run by people more or less like them [emphasis mine], and don't realize that it's the hate-based faction which is grabbing for political power." That is key - put 10 Christians in a room and ask them who God is, and you WILL get 10 different answers (well, at least if they are each alone when they answer). When you are up against deeply internalized symbols - God is good, God loves me, therefore I am good - then any hint of criticism of this God immediately gets the hair up on the back of their neck (you're attacking God, therefore you're attacking me!). It's like the reaction I had displaying the painting in a student lounge populated almost exclusively by "religious studies" (i.e. Christian studies) students. I was immedietely accussed of attacking Jesus, and Jesus is love, so I am attacking love - and the students personally. Christians forget how, when alone with their own denomination, they can be vary critical of other Christians (Catholic vs. Protestant, Evangelical vs. Episcopilian, Baptist vs. Southern Baptist, etc.). Their feeling of persecution comes from the same place as the Muslim cartoon protests - any hint of criticism IS persecution!

by joelp on Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 12:01:55 PM EST
That is something we have to get them to think about: are they being persecuted, or are they mixing up mere criticism with 'persecution'? I don't think that many of them really understand the difference.

I've had personal experience with real persecution. When it happens to you, there is no mistaking it for someone taking a critical view at your beliefs. Persecution tends to be an actionable thing: like a superior singling you out and harassing you for being unacceptably different, or losing your job or having your property vandalized.

Criticism is words. Persecution is action. There is the difference.

by Lorie Johnson on Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 12:14:06 PM EST
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There's a guy in my business group whom I'm CERTAIN does not like theocracy. And yet he spouts the whole "America was founded as a Christian Nation" at every chance he gets.

I find it scary that people who are, obstensibly, logical decent people (and believe themselves to be THINKING beings!), but who consistantly use these uninformed talking points about being persecuted and what the intent of our founders were, and what level the church and state relationship should be at.

For me, it's hard to engage...I'm an atheist. Even if I use a reasonable tone, the instant I say I'm an atheist, I must be persecuting them, and you automatically get the defense reaction from them. And that's when I can use a reasonable tone! I'm quiet human and get rather upset at times on top of that.

My MA blog: LeftinLowell.com


by lynne on Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 12:42:02 PM EST
"quite human" not quiet. I certainly cannot be described as quiet!!

My MA blog: LeftinLowell.com


by lynne on Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 12:42:54 PM EST
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It seems to me that a lot of otherwise decent, thoughtful people are just cruising along on mental autopilot- especially when they go to church and listen to the messages of their pastors. I wonder if they really understand what is going on in the background? Do they understand that a lot of what pastors preach on Sundays is orchestrated in a deliberate manner by people who do not want them to disengage their mental autopilot?

How can we get them to disengage it and start thinking for themselves? That is the critical question.

by Lorie Johnson on Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 12:55:22 PM EST
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As we all know, there is enough information out there to dispute many of the claims made by the religious right.

Engaging the individual in a discussion (rather than accusing them)about their beliefs is eye opening as the above posts have shown.  Focusing on one fallacy at a time rather than bombarding them with tons of contrary information is the best way, in my opinion.

Even hardliners who are determined to convert you can be made to see the light when you challenge them and they try to prove what they thought was the truth.

by rational on Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 02:46:36 PM EST
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I have actually been spending a lot of time and energy on the "A" word question. Just as the Right has invested decades rehabilitating terms (and demonizing others), I believe it may be necessary to do the same with the term "Atheist". It's considered such a loaded term with so much baggage (the new "N" word) that even most Atheists end up feeling aplogetic about the term, knowing that it is insulting to many.

It does not mean AGAINST GOD, but WITHOUT GOD; it just means that the concept of God does not enter into a persons life or decisions (I am also not AGAINST angels or the Loch Ness Monster; I just don't think they exist - aangelic and alochness!). Until the day when no American can feel they can ridicule or act negatively towards an Atheist publically (gee, like Jews and blacks and...) just say "I AM NOT RELIGIOUS", and leave it at that. Refuse to get into the discussion; after all, that's the point - for Atheists, religion (re: superstition) is not worth talking about, like Santa Clause and Bigfoot. In the end, if God exists, it does not mattter who believes and who does not. Only how they act.

What's important is respect for pluralism, which should be the greatest AMERICAN virtue. I respect your right to hold ANY religous belief, as long as that belief DOES NOT include the right to hate anyone who does not agree with your belief JUST FOR THAT REASON (which is a basic tenet of Fundamentalism). Oh, yes, and please keep it to yourself - remember, not wanting to hear about your personal lord and savior IS NOT persecution (even if a basic tenet of your belief is that you have to tell everyone).

by joelp on Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 02:29:37 PM EST

I find when the subject comes up, when I say "I don't have a God," rather than, "I'm an Atheist" or "I don't believe in God" that people can be somewhat less hostile, because it feels less hostile to hear it. It is a subtle distinction, but by not having a God it allows the other person to have their God. "I don't believe in God" seems to imply, for whatever reason, "and if you had any sense, you wouldn't either." which is NOT what I want to say to believers nor is it a good way to win friends or influence people.

by bybelknap on Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 03:27:03 PM EST
Parent
of reframing. Once we get the manichean structure of most of the religious right's world view, it is possible to neutralize many of their arguments.

by Frederick Clarkson on Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 04:42:51 PM EST
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I have to say "I don't believe in any sort of supernatural deity."

Because it would be untruthful for me to say otherwise...if you say "I don't have a god" it's more like being agnostic. I'm not agnostic.

Frankly, I am probably closest to what the Religious Right describes as a dangerous anti-god secular atheist. I simply can't make it sound like I don't think it's rather silly to believe in an invisible presence of any sort absence of any evidence. Truth to tell, I've had a lot of "miraculous" times in my life, spiritual experiences which I could have, if I were so inclined, attributed to some sort of god, but clear-headedness and Occam's Razor tell me that it's all here, all now, baby.

Of course, this "typical secular liberal" also practices what Jesus allegedly preached - working for the underprivileged, being generous of heart (most of the time), being progressive in my politics...shrug I treat this life as so very precious because I believe we are this life, and nothing more. It makes everything that happens - good and bad - so much better or worse than if you believe it's the ineffable plan of some omnipotent deity.

My MA blog: LeftinLowell.com


by lynne on Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 07:38:25 PM EST
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I said that in a right-wing religious theocracy, being Christian would not save them when the pogroms came, not if they were the wrong kind of Christian<<

Hi, new guy here. I enjoyed Lories post. I'm a non-trinitarian christian (Bible Students) and I live in Mississippi, the reddest of the red states. There are only about 15 people in this state who believe the Bible as I do, and I hear the precursors to persecution in the right wing, fundamentalist drumbeats of war, patriotism, and the 'Kingdom'... whatever that means to them. We are pacifist (not popular here) and basically, we believe almost everything exactly opposite of the churches. For example, we think jews should not convert to christianity, but stay jews, and that really irks evangelicals. We like to 'live and let live'.

I say all that just to say this; as a tiny, tiny minority christian group within the greater sea of christianity, I expect (but don't invite) persecution against those of us who refuse the 'mark of the beast'; the mark of cooperation with the church/state beastly system.

Thanks for a great, interesting forum.
Mark Tribble

by Bible Student on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 12:16:02 AM EST

Welcome aboard!

You might be surprised to discover that you are not as tiny a minority as you believe. But it saddens me that people who do not toe the theocratic/dominionist line and who are Christians will probably be the first to be attacked.

I should say, 'are being attacked', because if you read some of the other stories on this site, one of our writers is detailing the very deceptive and underhanded tactics of certain people who are destroying and assimilating mainline congregations.

by Lorie Johnson on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 12:07:00 PM EST
Parent

Thanks for the welcome! I really find this site useful and informative. I hope to be able to contribute something useful from the trenches here in Mississippi, a state of contrasts.

For example, the same people that love God and are so helpful, are the same people who would not object to public hangings (I have actually heard that expressed). The same ones who love Jesus also can't stand blacks. Nothing has changed much here in the last 50 years, except people are more cautious of their public utterances.

That being said, I don't think Mississippi or the south in general is much different than anywhere else where fundamentalists are in the majority.
Mark

by Bible Student on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 12:25:56 PM EST
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individually good decent people, but as a group, they were pure evil.

by FreedomfromChains on Fri Nov 03, 2006 at 11:32:14 PM EST


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