Film on Fire: Debate Rages Over Lake of Fire
Frederick Clarkson printable version print page     Bookmark and Share
Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 09:30:42 PM EST
Some interestingly conflicting, and conflicted reactions to Lake of Fire are starting to surface.  I have argued for more than a year that the the two and a half hour documentary on the politics of abortion had the potential to reshape the discussion about abortion.  One prominent person quoted in a recent major news story doesn't think so, but she  is "angered" and "insulted" by the film.  That's a pretty strong reaction for someone who doesn't think the film will make any difference.  

It is still not clear to me what kind of impact this film will have on the politics of abortion,particularly how it will affect public perception of the main proponents and opponents of reproductive freedom. Nevertheless, I think it is already functioning as a wild card in the public discussion.

Agence France Press recently described the film:  
"Lake of Fire," currently on limited release in the United States, unwinds over more than two and a half hours of interviews with some of the leading figures from the pro-life and pro-choice camps.

But it is the graphic and disturbing depiction of termination procedures, filmed like the rest of the movie in black and white, that marks the film out.

"From the moment I started making the film I thought I have to show an abortion, which at the time had never been done before," Kaye, best known for his 1998 neo-Nazi feature "American History X," told AFP in an interview....

One scene depicts a doctor sifting through a surgical tray after performing a late-term abortion, where the grisly residue of an arm, a foot and part of a face can be clearly made out...

They may be the kind of images used by anti-abortion activists, but Kaye also doesn't shy from showing pictures of a kneeling and bent-over naked woman who died after performing a botched abortion on herself with a wire coat hanger.

Kaye worked for more than 15 years on "Lake of Fire" -- anti-abortion activist John Burt's description of the hell awaiting abortionists -- and said his goal when he set out was simply to show both sides of the argument.

"The concept was to make a film about the debate over the issue of abortion but to make it a non-propagandist way and to create a kind of war of words."

The film has had antiabortion activists worried because of the film's detailed discussion of antiabortion terrorism, and interviews with convicted murderers Paul Hill and Michael Griffin. As I wrote earlier this year:

Kaye's film forces us to contend with the domestic terrorism that has marked the antiabortion movement for a generation.

ABCNews.com has a detailed story on reactions to the film.    

"I'm confused about the whole thing," [director Tony] Kaye told ABCNews.com. "If you gave me a piece of paper with a pro-life and a pro-choice box, without thought I'd pick the pro-choice box. I think a woman should be able to choose exactly what she does with her [body]. But I still think there's a person being killed, and that's not good."

Audience members' reactions were equally mixed. Many told ABCNEWS.com that they thought the film was a balanced look at the issue, while others insisted it was largely "anti-abortionist" and some even said it was "very liberal."

Wanda Franz of the National Right to Life Committee, who had not seen the film, had understandably bland and non-committal quotes in the ABC piece. Not so the prochoice voice:

"This was not a balanced portrayal of the issue," said Carol King, former National Organization for Women board member and abortion-rights activist, who has seen the documentary. "One of the things that has upset me more than anything else is the [comparison] of the anti-choice extremists to pro-choice activists. I have never encouraged in any way to kill people with whom I disagree."  ...

King added that she thought Kaye used graphic images for "superficial purposes" and "shock value." The number of activists on either side of the abortion debate has remained the same over more than 30 years, according to King, who said she didn't think this movie was going to change that.

The images, which King told ABCNEWS.com left her "angered" and "insulted," are commonly used by anti-abortion activists during protests.

From the prolife side, a New York magazine reviewer agrees that the symbolism of the dead fetus is powerful, he argues, unbeatable.  But, based on reading press reports, Tom Hoopes, executive editor of the National Catholic Register, (and who has not seen the film) says he smells a rat. His collumn at The National Review, is titled: "Lake of Bias:  No choice but pro-choice."

He quotes Harvard University law professor Alan Dershowitz:

"Everybody is right when it comes to the issue of abortion," he says in the film. "In the end human beings have to decide. In the end each of us has to decide using whatever resources we have available to us: religion, our mind, our sense of what is right and wrong in society."

In other words, the grand conclusion of this ground-breaking non-propagandist documentary is: Believe whatever you want to believe, but whatever you believe, you had better be "pro-choice."

That may be Dershowitz's view, but it is not (in my view) Tony Kaye's view.  

In anycase, we have so far seen people well-within both the prochoice and antichoice camps argue that the film slants their way or slants the other way.

It is the stuff of which great debates are made.

Personally, I think the signficance of the film lies elsewhere -- it is a work of art more than it is journalism. It is intended to stimulate people's thinking on this. I suspect that people's reactions are exactly what interests Kaye. I read that he was outside of one theater filming people's reactions recently.

There are undoubtedly many who do not want to discuss Lake of Fire at all. My argument is that the public discussion is going to happen anyway. It matters less which side benefits most in the film itself, and matters a lot more how each side develops considered and effective responses to the film and to public reaction -- whatever that turns out to be.




Display:
Thanks for an interesting post.  Given that both sides seem to find things to object to in the movie, you are likely right that (a) this is one of the most balanced look at abortion in a long time and (b) most people would prefer not to discuss it at all because of that.

I've long believed that the only way to finally resolve the abortion issue will be some sort of compromise between the two extreme positions. (Not that I consider it possible anytime in the near future in the USA.)

To me, it seems obvious that a unborn child, a week or so from its birth date, should have absolute protection from termination unless, in some extreme and rare circumstance, the mother's life is in great peril.

But it also seems obvious to be that a one day old fetus should not have the same absolute protection.  First, many such fetuses are naturally terminated at or beyond that point, and second, they have not developed central nervous system and are not capable of thought or feeling pain or any other sensation.  And in some ways, as a society, given the almost universal acceptance of IVF treatments across the political spectrum, that line has already been irrevocably crossed.  (And that will be doubly confirmed if and when stem cell research produces its first life-saving treatment.)

Of course, once you accept both the above positions, you still have the messy debate over where you go in the pregnancy from legal termination to illegal termination.   That is still a major issue in countries like the UK where abortion is legal except for most late-term abortions, but if we could get to that point, it would at least mark a step forward.

However, given the entrenched positions of both sides, I doubt the USA will get there any time soon (i.e. with the next couple of decades).  One day perhaps technology may make abortion obsolete somehow.  Perhaps only then will the abortion debate be decided once and for all.

by tacitus on Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 11:37:39 PM EST

Third trimester abortions are regulated such that they are available only for certain medical conditions, as determined by the physician(s). Women do not WANT to have late abortions - if they knew about anencephaly or about their own vulnerability due to pregnancy (eg, that hospitalized woman with heart failure awaiting a heart transplant), they would have the abortion as soon as possible.

The anti-legalized-abortion people like to spread various myths around. There are no gestational age week 39 6/7 abortions in normal pregnancies. Most of the genetic or developmental defect abortions (trisomies other than 21, anencephaly, Potter's syndrome, Tay-Sachs homozygote, etc) are done as soon as possible, generally now within the second trimester or at most a week or two into the third trimester. The most "normal" pregnancy having third term abortion is the very rare instance when someone succeeds in convincing a doctor to abort an 11 or 12 year old girl impregnated by her own father. Most of the time the girls either present a bit earlier or just never say a word and pretend they have no idea how they got pregnant, or that the guy down the street did it.

by NancyP on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 07:35:58 PM EST
Parent

You are correct, and maybe I was clumsy in trying to frame the debate, but I have come across pro-choicers who see any restrictions on abortion as leading to the ultimate defeat of their cause.

We have let the anti-abortion lobby spin the facts so that I would bet that many people believe that unfettered late term abortion (for non-medical reasons) is a common occurrence.  It's certainly the only message that seems to be on the airwaves week in and week out.  Perhaps that is something that needs to be countered more effectively.

by tacitus on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 11:46:48 PM EST
Parent





WWW Talk To Action


Cognitive Dissonance & Dominionism Denial
There is new research on why people are averse to hearing or learning about the views of ideological opponents. Based on evaluation of five......
By Frederick Clarkson (374 comments)
Will the Air Force Do Anything To Rein In Its Dynamic Duo of Gay-Bashing, Misogynistic Bloggers?
"I always get nervous when I see female pastors/chaplains. Here is why everyone should as well: "First, women are not called to be pastors,......
By Chris Rodda (195 comments)
The Legacy of Big Oil
The media is ablaze with the upcoming publication of David Grann's book, Killers of the Flower Moon. The shocking non fiction account of the......
By wilkyjr (110 comments)
Gimme That Old Time Dominionism Denial
Over the years, I have written a great deal here and in other venues about the explicitly theocratic movement called dominionism -- which has......
By Frederick Clarkson (101 comments)
History Advisor to Members of Congress Completely Twists Jefferson's Words to Support Muslim Ban
Pseudo-historian David Barton, best known for his misquoting of our country's founders to promote the notion that America was founded as a Christian nation,......
By Chris Rodda (113 comments)
"Christian Fighter Pilot" Calls First Lesbian Air Force Academy Commandant a Liar
In a new post on his "Christian Fighter Pilot" blog titled "BGen Kristin Goodwin and the USAFA Honor Code," Air Force Lieutenant Colonel Jonathan......
By Chris Rodda (144 comments)
Catholic Right Leader Unapologetic about Call for 'Death to Liberal Professors' -- UPDATED
Today, Donald Trump appointed C-FAM Executive Vice President Lisa Correnti to the US Delegation To UN Commission On Status Of Women. (C-FAM is a......
By Frederick Clarkson (126 comments)
Controlling Information
     Yesterday I listened to Russ Limbaugh.  Rush advised listeners it would be best that they not listen to CNN,MSNBC, ABC, CBS and......
By wilkyjr (118 comments)
Is Bannon Fifth-Columning the Pope?
In December 2016 I wrote about how White House chief strategist Steve Bannon, who likes to flash his Catholic credentials when it comes to......
By Frank Cocozzelli (250 comments)
Ross Douthat's Hackery on the Seemingly Incongruous Alliance of Bannon & Burke
Conservative Catholic writer Ross Douthat has dissembled again. This time, in a February 15, 2017 New York Times op-ed titled The Trump Era's Catholic......
By Frank Cocozzelli (64 comments)
`So-Called Patriots' Attack The Rule Of Law
Every so often, right-wing commentator Pat Buchanan lurches out of the far-right fever swamp where he has resided for the past 50 years to......
By Rob Boston (161 comments)
Bad Faith from Focus on the Family
Here is one from the archives, Feb 12, 2011, that serves as a reminder of how deeply disingenuous people can be. Appeals to seek......
By Frederick Clarkson (176 comments)
The Legacy of George Wallace
"One need not accept any of those views to agree that they had appealed to real concerns of real people, not to mindless, unreasoning......
By wilkyjr (70 comments)
Betsy DeVos's Mudsill View of Public Education
My Talk to Action colleague Rachel Tabachnick has been doing yeoman's work in explaining Betsy DeVos's long-term strategy for decimating universal public education. If......
By Frank Cocozzelli (80 comments)
Prince and DeVos Families at Intersection of Radical Free Market Privatizers and Religious Right
This post from 2011 surfaces important information about President-Elect Trump's nominee for Secretary of Education, Betsy DeVos. -- FC Erik Prince, Brother of Betsy......
By Rachel Tabachnick (218 comments)

Respect for Others? or Political Correctness?
The term "political correctness" as used by Conservatives and Republicans has often puzzled me: what exactly do they mean by it? After reading Chip Berlin's piece here-- http://www.talk2action.org/story/2016/7/21/04356/9417 I thought about what he explained......
MTOLincoln (253 comments)
Fear
What I'm feeling now is fear.  I swear that it seems my nightmares are coming true with this new "president".  I'm also frustrated because so many people are not connecting all the dots! I've......
ArchaeoBob (107 comments)
"America - love it or LEAVE!"
I've been hearing that and similar sentiments fairly frequently in the last few days - far FAR more often than ever before.  Hearing about "consequences for burning the flag (actions) from Trump is chilling!......
ArchaeoBob (211 comments)
"Faked!" Meme
Keep your eyes and ears open for a possible move to try to discredit the people openly opposing Trump and the bigots, especially people who have experienced terrorism from the "Right"  (Christian Terrorism is......
ArchaeoBob (165 comments)
More aggressive proselytizing
My wife told me today of an experience she had this last week, where she was proselytized by a McDonald's employee while in the store. ......
ArchaeoBob (163 comments)
See if you recognize names on this list
This comes from the local newspaper, which was conservative before and took a hard right turn after it was sold. Hint: Sarah Palin's name is on it!  (It's also connected to Trump.) ......
ArchaeoBob (169 comments)
Unions: A Labor Day Discussion
This is a revision of an article which I posted on my personal board and also on Dailykos. I had an interesting discussion on a discussion board concerning Unions. I tried to piece it......
Xulon (156 comments)
Extremely obnoxious protesters at WitchsFest NYC: connected to NAR?
In July of this year, some extremely loud, obnoxious Christian-identified protesters showed up at WitchsFest, an annual Pagan street fair here in NYC.  Here's an account of the protest by Pagan writer Heather Greene......
Diane Vera (130 comments)
Capitalism and the Attack on the Imago Dei
I joined this site today, having been linked here by Crooksandliars' Blog Roundup. I thought I'd put up something I put up previously on my Wordpress blog and also at the DailyKos. As will......
Xulon (329 comments)
History of attitudes towards poverty and the churches.
Jesus is said to have stated that "The Poor will always be with you" and some Christians have used that to refuse to try to help the poor, because "they will always be with......
ArchaeoBob (148 comments)
Alternate economy medical treatment
Dogemperor wrote several times about the alternate economy structure that dominionists have built.  Well, it's actually made the news.  Pretty good article, although it doesn't get into how bad people could be (have been)......
ArchaeoBob (90 comments)
Evidence violence is more common than believed
Think I've been making things up about experiencing Christian Terrorism or exaggerating, or that it was an isolated incident?  I suggest you read this article (linked below in body), which is about our great......
ArchaeoBob (214 comments)

More Diaries...




All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective companies. Comments, posts, stories, and all other content are owned by the authors. Everything else © 2005 Talk to Action, LLC.