A Cleansing Fire ? Chris Hedges on The Utopian Atheism Of Sam Harris
Bruce Wilson printable version print page     Bookmark and Share
Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:59:07 PM EST
Polemics characterizing religion as uniformly and unavoidable pernicious if not downright evil certainly sell lots of books, and that's very good if one happens to be Sam Harris or Christopher Hitchens. But are they good for the rest of us, or for the world ? In a Salon interview Chris Hedges discusses his new book, "I don't Believe in Atheists" and the title risks encouraging atheist-baiting from the religious right but it also might tempt some atheist baiters to buy it. If the book (which I haven't yet read) bears any relation to Hedges' Salon interview that would be a good thing. Along with Hedges, I concur that atheists such as Sam Harris and evangelists like John Hagee are utopianists who believe the world can be perfected through mass violence; they "externalize evil", such that it is not in "us" but in "them", large swaths of humanity they rhetorically dehumanize and advocate be subjugated or even eradicated in preemptive wars. For both, the collective "them" are all Muslims and though Harris would likely deny it, his message supports John Hagee's central project - fomenting religious war between Christianity and Islam.
Atheist declares war on religion ! - reads the headlines. In the abstract it sounds so gallant, so quixotic: the charge of the light atheist brigade, boldly they rode into the valley of death... On the surface it's got broad appeal -  Logic over superstition ! Reason over faith ! As it turns out, Sam Harris' thought is not the stuff of pure logic and reason as John Gorenfeld illustrated in a January 5, 2007 piece entitled Sam Harris's Faith in Eastern Spirituality and Muslim Torture:

The thrust of Harris's best-sellers is that with the world so crazed by religion, it's high time Americans stopped tolerating faith in the Rapture, the Resurrection and anything else not grounded in evidence. Only trouble is, our country's foremost promoter of "reason" is also supportive of ESP, reincarnation and other unscientific concepts. Not all of it is harmless yoga class hokum -- he's also a proponent of waterboarding and other forms of torture. . .

Harris's work has won a surprising following among nonmystics. Times science writer Natalie Angier felt "vindicated, almost personally understood" reading it, she wrote in a review. Evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins has practically adopted Harris as the American Robin to his Batman in confronting unreason wherever it may lurk in the hearts of men. "The End of Faith" should "replace the Gideon Bible in every hotel room in the land," blurbs Dawkins.

* * *

When that happens, Muslims will check into the Best Western and find a text cheering their torture.

Gorenfeld's article covered a number of aspects to Sam Harris' ideas that somehow have escaped widespread notice but there's more to Harris' darker side than merely his advocacy of torture (especially when applied to Muslims). In an op-ed on the Huffington Postm Harris wrote:

"[R]eligious moderates are themselves the bearers of a terrible dogma: they imagine that the path to peace will be paved once each of us has learned to respect the unjustified beliefs of others. I hope to show that the very ideal of religious tolerance--born of the notion that every human being should be free to believe whatever he wants about God--is one of the principal forces driving us towards the abyss."

One can find entire books on this theme, from leaders on the American right and Christian right: intolerance is good ! It's a virtue ! The theme gets used to propell various sorts of bigotry and also Christian nationalism.

Of course, the issue of "tolerance" vs. "intolerance" is a tricky one because human societies reserve the right to collectively condemn various acts and behavior as "intolerable", which in context is another way to designate acts which violate shared societal norms. But, Sam Harris isn't talking about that sort of intolerance. Rather, he's claiming we shouldn't allow people to hold certain beliefs and he expresses that with the grim eliminationalist assertion:

"Some propositions are so dangerous that it may even be ethical to kill people for believing them. . . . There is, in fact, no talking to some people. If they cannot be captured, and they often cannot, otherwise tolerant people may be justified in killing them in self-defense."

Although I agreed with most of Chris Hedges' significant arguments put forth in his book "American Fascists" (which I have read) it was often light on substantiating charges Hedges leveled against the Christian right. But "I Don't Believe In Atheists" seems rooted in Chris Hedges' strongest experiential resume, in both his theological training, at Harvard Divinity School and the decade Hedges spent, in war torn Bosnia, Kosovo and elsewhere, as a war correspondent for the New York Times - so it's almost certainty on stronger ground. Hedges is at  his most persuasive, in my view, when he draws upon his understanding of human nature developed from witnessing humans at war and caught up in war.

To understand that most humans are actually capable, under the right conditions, of acts of mass violence is to become acutely aware of the problems of evil and sin - regardless of whether one couches those in a religious idiom or not. By "evil" and "sin" I mean, here, that which humans are capable of, our potential to do violence. Chris Hedges has witnessed some of this potential and so he is acutely sensitize to the danger of denying our inherent destructive potential.

Several years ago I became interested in the question of how human beings are able to commit acts of mass violence. It seems unimaginable... except, of course, to people who have witnessed acts of mass violence, perpetrated them or survived massacres. As it turns out, it is not actually very difficult to condition average human beings to carry out acts of astonishing brutality. A recent, groundbreaking work by the psychologist James Waller, Becoming Evil: How Ordinary People Commit Genocide and Mass Killing (Oxford University Press, 2002) explores that process. Explains Waller:

"To offer a psychological explanation for the atrocities committed by perpetrators is not to forgive, justify or condone their behavior. Instead, the explanation simply allows us to understand the conditions under which many of us could be transformed into killing machines. When we understand the ordinariness of extraordinary evil, we will be less surprised by evil, less likely to be unwitting contributors to evil, and perhaps better equipped to forestall evil."

Later, I was moved to compile, in a Talk To Action piece, "a short compendium of research into methods and processes by which human instinctual inhibitions can be bypassed or dampened such that average human beings can be socially conditioned to carry out acts of genocide and mass violence against fellow members of their own species, even against their neighbors.", entitled How Average Humans Can Be Conditioned To Carry Out Acts Of Mass Violence One of the important steps in the process by which human beings can be conditioned to carry out ( or condone ) acts of mass violence is dehumanization : "they" are fundamentally different from "us". Let me take an excerpt from a February 7, 2006 piece, by Sam Harris, with the rather grandiose title Sam Harris on the Reality of Islam published on Truthdig.com, to illustrate how this works. Harris' original piece generated a great deal of controversy, and so he followed up later with the following. Harris starts out by noting he's been critical of other religious traditions than just Islam:

Anyone familiar with my work knows that I am extremely critical of all religious faiths. I have argued elsewhere that the ascendancy of Christian conservatism in American politics should terrify and embarrass us. I have argued that the religious dogmatism of the Jewish settlers could well be the cause of World War III.
Having asserted his credentials as an ostensibly unbiased observer, Harris moves on to:
And yet, there are gradations to the evil that is done in name of God... there is a direct link between the doctrine of Islam and Muslim violence. Acknowledging this link remains especially taboo among political liberals...
In other words, "liberals" are in denial, weak and unrealistic concerning the threat of militant Islam. Harris then moves on to a series of unsupportable and a-historic assertions:
The truth that we must finally confront is that Islam contains specific notions of martyrdom and jihad that fully explain the character of Muslim violence.
Unlike Sam Harris, University of Chicago professor Robert A. Pape has actually researched the relationship of Islam to suicide bombing by way of compiling, with the help of teams of graduate students, the world's largest database on suicide terrorism, and Pape summarizes the results of that research in the 2005 book Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism (link to interview with Pape published in American Conservative magazine. Here is a 1-hour video interview with Pape). In the interview, Pape states:
Over the past two years, I have collected the first complete database of every suicide-terrorist attack around the world from 1980 to early 2004.... This wealth of information creates a new picture about what is motivating suicide terrorism. Islamic fundamentalism is not as closely associated with suicide terrorism as many people think. The world leader in suicide terrorism is a group that you may not be familiar with: the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka. This is a Marxist group, a completely secular group that draws from the Hindu families of the Tamil regions of the country. They invented the famous suicide vest for their suicide assassination of Rajiv Ghandi in May 1991. The Palestinians got the idea of the suicide vest from the Tamil Tigers.
Sam Harris tries to counter the secular origins of suicide terrorism, according to Pape, by claiming that it's somehow significant that the Tamil Tigers draw members from a Hindu population. But, note Pape's unequivocal language; the Tamils are "completely secular" and that's unsurprising given they're a Marxist group. In other arguments, Harris has actually asserted that the death toll associated with Stalin-era Russia did not happen under an atheist or a-religious regime, and Harris tries to pull a similar stunt by claiming that even if the Tamils aren't Muslims they're nonetheless quasi-religious due to the Hindu population from which the group draws it's membership. So : the reigning world expert, who has extensively studied the issue, states:
The central fact is that overwhelmingly suicide-terrorist attacks are not driven by religion as much as they are by a clear strategic objective: to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from the territory that the terrorists view as their homeland.
Getting back to Sam Harris' extended vilification of Islam, Harris then pulls out the "we must fight them over there or else we'll eventually be fighting them over here" argument:
Unless the world’s Muslims can find some way of expunging the metaphysics that is fast turning their religion into a cult of death, we will ultimately face the same perversely destructive behavior throughout much of the world....
But Robert A. Pape states, unequivocally:
Since suicide terrorism is mainly a response to foreign occupation and not Islamic fundamentalism, the use of heavy military force to transform Muslim societies over there, if you would, is only likely to increase the number of suicide terrorists coming at us.
Then, Sam Harris moves along to almost perfectly invert the history of European colonial adventurism in the Middle East which goes back, to put it with blackest sarcasm, 'a little ways'...
...it is clear that the doctrine of Islam poses unique problems for the emergence of a global civilization.... Islam is undeniably a religion of conquest. The only future devout Muslims can envisage—as Muslims—is one in which all infidels have been converted to Islam, politically subjugated, or killed.
It's difficult to understand what Harris is talking about unless he's somehow being projected from a parallel Earth in which Jihadist suicide armies are at the gates of New York, Brussels, Paris and Tokyo. But back on the Earth where we live, European powers and later the United States, have bombed, invaded, occupied, manipulated and coerced nations and territories in the Middle East with dreary frequency to the point that it's really not possible to say what the character of Islam or the cultures in the region might be had the area simply been left alone. Further, unless Sam Harris is indeed being projected from a parallel reality, he's aware of that history and his allegation that Islam is a "religion of conquest" is possible, yes - if Islamic countries had the preponderance of force they might well prone to attack neighboring, non-Islamic countries. The current fact, though, is that the history of the region, up to this day, is one of Christian and western nations using coercive force in the region and Sam Harris claims are risible given the current US invasion and occupation of Iraq, generally acknowledged to have been based on false premises and which has been attributed, by former Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan, to have been mainly about controlling Iraq's oil resources. Then, Sam Harris moves in for the propagandistic kill:
...Devout Muslims can have no doubt about the reality of Paradise or about the efficacy of martyrdom as a means of getting there. Nor can they question the wisdom and reasonableness of killing people for what amount to theological grievances.... the basic thrust of the doctrine is undeniable: convert, subjugate, or kill unbelievers; kill apostates; and conquer the world....
"They" want to conquer the world : Evidence for that claim ? I'm sure Harris has plenty of arguments. But back on the Earth where we live, American Christian fundamentalists are doing their best, amidst the United States occupation of Iraq, to convert Iraqis to Christianity. As far as subjugation goes, polls tend to show that a majority of Iraqis would like American troops to leave their country. As a final touch, Sam Harris hauls at the menacing:
Muslims pose a special problem for nuclear deterrence. There is, after all, little possibility of our having a cold war with an Islamist regime armed with long-range nuclear weapons
IN short - "they're" insane. "They" do not value, as we do, human life and so if they acquire nuclear weapons they will not behave in a predictable, sane and human manner. "They" will immediately lash out and bomb the US or Israel and accept the consequences as their country is bombed into vitrified glass, it's civilian population vaporized. What are readers apt to take away from this hateful propagandistic screed ? The implication is that by some magical, allegedly corrupting force of Islam, "they" have been changed - "they" are less than human. The text cited from Sam Harris, above, functions as one of the preliminary steps necessary for conditioning humans to carry out acts of mass violence.

Given that Sam Harris has suggested that it's ethical to kill people for their beliefs, it's possible to interpret his writing as advocating preemptive mass killing, on a level that's truly genocidal, of entire population groups. Harris would likely deny it, but it seems possible to take away such an understanding from Harris' work and that point gets at an observation of Chris Hedges that I feel bears widespread discussion: what Sam Harris and John Hagee alike appear to espouse is the doctrine that the world can be purified, evil somehow categorically banished, through acts of mass violence. This is not a new idea - Hitler and the Nazis held such a doctrine, of perfecting the world through violence and it was not a new idea then. Now, however, with nuclear weapons we can inflict "cleansing" violence upon the world at an unprecedented level, on a global scale.

The problem with utopian think, at base, is its insistence that the world can perfected, that by some course of human action human existence will be forever improved - war and conflict banished (a secular utopian vision), the thousand year Reich (a mystical utopian vision), the thousand year rule of Jesus (a religious utopian vision) - and the belief that some basic flaw can be eradicated from history often leads to totalistic, apocalyptic programs of violence.

As Hedges tells Wilder in the Salon interview:

I write in the book that not believing in God is not dangerous. Not believing in sin is very dangerous. I think both the Christian right and the New Atheists in essence don't believe in their own sin, because they externalize evil. Evil is always something out there that can be eradicated. For the New Atheists, it's the irrational religious hordes. I mean, Sam Harris, at the end of his first book, asks us to consider a nuclear first strike on the Arab world. Both Hitchens and Harris defend the use of torture. Of course, they're great supporters of preemptive war, and I don't think this is accidental that their political agendas coalesce completely with the Christian right.

One transcendent point Hedges touches on is the tendency of utopian thinking to warp human moral sensibilities. "We", who have ourselves defined "them" as evil also presume to sit in judgement and even to destroy "them". In theological terms, and in many different religions, that reduces to a human claim to divinity or, as Hedges puts it, "self worship" (which I take as essentially the same charge). Toward the end of the Salon interview Charly Wilder asks Hedges:

If we're afraid to privilege Enlightenment values, don't we run the risk of sanctioning religious rituals that discriminate against women and minorities?

Which Hedges responds:

"...I'm not a cultural relativist. I don't think that if you live in Somalia, it's fine to mutilate little girls. There is nothing wrong with taking a moral stand, but when we take a moral stand and then use it to elevate ourselves to another moral plane above other human beings, then it becomes, in biblical terms, a form of self-worship. That's what the New Atheists have, and that's what the Christian fundamentalists have."

Oddly, religious systems, despite Sam Harris vigorous scouring of religious traditions generally, are actually better equipped to resist these sorts of presumptions, of being on a higher moral plane whereas someone making the same presumption, in a secular context, is not so easy to rebut. The religiously based rebuke to such behavior is the charge of some sort of blasphemy or heresy and comes down, really, to the charge: How dare you! But rationalist, or pseudo rationalist at any rate, arguments made by someone such as Sam Harris can't be swatted down so efficiently.

Neither Sam Harris or John Hagee makes the claim that 1.3 bilion of the world's Muslims are just no good. But they achieve that charge quite effectively, starting with: Islam is bad ! Harris, Hagee, and others in the business of painting Islam as an inherently bloodthirsty and expansionist religion (bent on conquering and subjugating if not killing Christians and Jews) focus on specific unpleasant passages, in the Koran and the Hadeeth, and the vilification of religious traditions, by plucking out specific bits of scripture, works quite well for demonizing Christianity via the Old Testament and for demonizing Judaism via the Torah and the Talmud. Indeed, the Nazi propaganda film "The Eternal Jew" features a section of the film devoted to the proposition that Jews are mercenary, conspiratorial, murderers, rapists and so on because they're told to be that way in Jewish scripture.

There's a considerable cadre of speakers and publicists currently working the national circuit in the US (and to a lesser extent in Europe and the UK) making arguments which claim Muslims are bad because they have bad religious beliefs, and there are few currently working to rebut such hate speech. Chris Hedges' concern, and it's one I fully share, is that in the event of another major terrorist attack within the US there could be a "call for an assault on Muslims, both outside our gates and on the 6 million Muslims who live within our borders. And that frightens me, that demonization of a people -- turning human beings into abstractions, so that they're not human anymore. They don't have hopes, dreams, aspirations, pains, sufferings. They represent an unmitigated evil... that is at the bedrock of the ideology of the New Atheists as it is with the Christian fundamentalists."

There are few currently with the awareness and moral clarity to see such ongoing demonization for what it is and for where it can lead - Chris Hedges is one.




Display:

Professor PZ Myers has a very different opinion on Hedges' new book, and especially on Hedges' Salon interview.

I am providing this link for your convenience:

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/03/chris_hedges_wastes_ev eryones.php

Personally, I find Hedge's lumping of atheist thought into such unsupportable claims as "utopian" to be very jarring. I have absolutely no such utopian visions myself, so I am at least one exception to that claim.

From what I can tell from the Salon interview, Hedges' new book won't be worth reading as it seems to be filled with mostly intellectual inanity.

I'm certainly no great fan of either Hitchens or Harris, incidentally. Their notion that we should preemptively kill anyone because of "belief" is reprehensible to me; however, it may be the case that in some situations there is no alternative when it comes to dealing with people who are acting out those beliefs in very dangerous ways, which is what I think H&H really are saying. After all, I can never know what you believe until you demonstrate that belief in some manner. If that manner takes the form of murderous behavior, and you cannot be apprehended or rendered powerless, then what am I, representing civilized society, to do about you?

by Forrest Prince on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:16:30 PM EST

I read the Salon interview with Hedges too and I wasn't impressed. While I understand his concerns with atheist writers such as Harris and Hitchens, to base his understanding of atheism itself on the basis of those two writers is just as intellectually sloppy as basing one's understanding of Christianity on Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell. Also, Hedges' rationale that "New Atheists" are just as bad as Christian fundies really doesn't stand up to scrutiny. After all, the fundies in the U.S. are openly courting politicians, own vast media empires that include TV stations and publishing companies, and are spending billions of dollars annually on proselytization efforts around the world--efforts that often involve demonizing other religions--while people considering themselves to be atheist in the U.S. make up less than 2 percent of the population. How is that equal???

Is it just me, or have the recent books published by Harris, Hitchins and Dawkins prompted the longest temper tantrum against atheism since Communist Russia? When the heck are people going to move on?



by Mitchell on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:32:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I got the sense he was talking about a specific tendency and most specifically of all, about Sam Harris and, Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins.

My apologies in advance though - this piece is really only a kernel of a longer exposition I need to do and - for my part - I'm not interested in saying anything at all about atheists generally. Rather, I'm interested in what Harris, or Hitchens or Dawkins - specific people - wrote and until I see actually evidence of a broader behavioral trend I'm not going into any sort of broad brush characterization (or even with a pointy little detail brush for that matter) of atheists generally.

But in terms of your reaction, I tells me that there's a lot of work to be done - you see, I've been studying vilification of Islam, and the push for religious war, from NeoCon quarters and from the Christian right for a number of months now and Harris' attacks on Islam look startlingly familiar to me. I realize though, that unless one is tapped into that phenomenon what I'm saying may sound strange.

Your reaction lets me know that I need to make some points in my argumentative presentation more explicit, so thanks.

by Bruce Wilson on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:58:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]


is talking about all atheists; nor does Hedges lump all atheists with Harris and Hitches et al.

Hedges does critique some of the leading authors who are collectively known as the "new atheists.

Bruce's discussion on this site has to do with his concern, well justified in my view, that Harris et al function as fun house mirrors of John Hagee in terms of their sweeping anti-Islamic pronouncements and justifications for war with Middle Eastern countries. It is a fair concern.

If we are going to talk about this stuff, let's please keep it in terms of the site topic: the religious right and what to do about it.

There are certainly elements of the discusison about Harris and Hedges et al, that is on topic... But as always, let's avoid turning this into the tired old (and off topic) debate beteween theism and atheism.

by Frederick Clarkson on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 05:42:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This is a work in progress. There's much to be said here. I've just added some fairly close textual commentary on a piece of writing, by Sam Harris, which vilifies Islam and explained how it functions to rhetorically dehumanize Muslims.

Dehumanization, of target populations, has been shown to be one of the initial stages in the process by which humans can be conditioned to carry out acts of mass violence.

by Bruce Wilson on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 07:10:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]





To pick Sam Harris as the embodiment of atheism is about as logical as selecting Britney Spears as the paragon of blondes.

Why is Hedges generalizing so widely from such a narrow dataset?

by Pierce R Butler on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 11:16:12 PM EST

I think not. Indeed, I believe I took some pains to critique Sam Harris,, not atheism in general.

by Bruce Wilson on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 11:26:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
When one critiques a particular writer, (Harris and Wallis are good examples), some otherwise intelligent, thoughtful people will contstrue the critique of the particular as applying to whole categories: in the case of Wallis, evangelicals; in the case of Harris, atheists.

Such kneejerkedness is unwarranted, but revealing.

by Frederick Clarkson on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 10:09:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Bruce Wilson was indeed quite careful to limit his criticisms to Sam Harris; from what I can tell (I can't see the interview cited [Salon's software being unable to send cookies in my browser despite settings supposedly allowing same]), Hedges is not so conscientious.

If the excerpts from Hedges listed in the recent Pharyngula critique are accurate, my "sloppy writing & thinking" complaint is well-justified.

For that matter, Hedges misreads the fundamentalists he claims to have spent two years researching: see my comment on his 12/31/06 T2A.org article.

OT: the formatting buttons here aren't working for me either - could you please direct me to an explanation of their proper use?

by Pierce R Butler on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 11:36:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The 12/31/06 Hedges article I was kvetching about ("America's Holy Warriors") was posted at TruthDig.com, not T2A.

by Pierce R Butler on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 11:41:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

and saw nothing in the way of sloppy thinking or any kind of generalizations about atheists -- with the exception of his unfortunately and unnecessarily (IMO) provocative book title.

Since I have not read the book itself, I'll remain agnostic on that.

by Frederick Clarkson on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 12:00:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]






Fred,

What you said about Hedges not lumping all athiests together with Harris seems to run counter to the title of Hedges new book, "I Don't Believe in Atheists". (Heck, just the title of the book alone is the "tired old (and off topic) debate beteween theism and atheism".) Note that the title does not say "New Atheists", just "Atheists", which makes me wonder if Harris himself really knows that there is a difference between the "New Atheists" and just plain "Atheists". Judging from his book discription, I would say no, because it describes "New Atheism" as being those "who brand all religious belief as irrational and dangerous", which sounds like regular atheism to me. Thus, it appears that Hedges would classify all of atheism as "radical, polarized and dangerous", even though he slips in the term "New Atheism" to appear P.C.

You also talk about staying on topic--"the religious right and what to do about it"--and to me wasting time on Hitchins, Harris et al and those who critique them like Hedges are in fact OFF TOPIC. True, Harris published a book that has bad, insane ideas in it, but compare that to the overwhelming number of books put out by the Christian Right that consistently argue in favor of their own supremacy. That was the point I was trying to make in my previous post: for all of the fuss that many writers are making over Hitchins, Harris and Dawkins, they are still small, small fries in comparison to the likes of Dobson, Hagee, and others.

It appears to me that what Hedges and writers like him are trying to do is to set up a false dichotomy, that Christian Fundies and New Atheists are equal but opposite threats. But if you look at the numbers, both in terms of population and financial resources, that just doesn't stand up. Christian Fundies carry much more power and influence than Atheists in general; they do now, and they have for a very, very long time. For example, Hedges' discription of new atheists as "those who attack religion to advance the worst of global capitalism, intolerance and imperial projects" sounds exactly like the Christian Church that aligned itself with the colonial empires of Europe. Yes, the Church attacked religion, because one of the Church's tactics when invading indigenous cultures is to attack the legitimacy of indigenous religions. (Imagine that: Conservative Christianity is actually the anti-religion religion. Go fig.)

In short, this is all just a distraction from this site's topic. If this new book makes Hedges feel good about himself and his ongoing loyalty to a faith that has long relied on fundamentalism to advance its own interests, fine. Otherwise, it's like trying to analyze the crimes of the current Bush Administration with a conservative who keeps trying to push the conversation back to Bill Clinton's term in office: it ultimately goes nowhere.



by Mitchell on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 08:49:13 AM EST
than "seems," "appears," and "if."  

Additionally, I think you are wrong to belittle the influence of Harris, Dawkins and Hitchens. Harris and Dawkins have three NYT best sellers between them (I am not sure if God is Not Great made it), and Hitchens has been all over the national media. Their style of argument polarizes and poisons conversations among people who might be able to agree on most things that matter, including even basic conversations about the religious right -- as I, and others have discussed on this site: For example: http://www.talk2action.org/story/2007/3/22/134216/152

http://www.talk2action.org/story/2007/4/30/162545/816

Your assertion that "Hedges and writers like him" are trying to establish a false equivalence of the threat between Christian fundamentalits and new atheists is wrong, as you would no doubt find if you actually tried to support it.  If you said Jim Wallis, you would get my agreement, and that of most if not all of us here. But Hedges, and for that matter, Bruce Wilson are nothing like Jim Wallis.

I gently suggest that you consider what Bruce and Hedges actually have to say, instead of knocking down strawmen.

by Frederick Clarkson on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 09:47:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Fred,

OK, I realize that the latest wave of "New Atheist" authors bother you to no end. While you think that I'm belittling the influence of Hitchens et al, consider this: even though these books are bestsellers, they don't even come close to the amounts of revenue generated by, say, the Left Behind franchise and the Christian Right book and music industries. Furthermore, for as much as these authors are featured in the press and televisions, they don't own their own media production and distribution companies--unlike many of the fundies. Hell, the fundies have entire TV stations and radio stations solely devoted to espousing their point of view; Hitchens et al have nothing even close to that.

As for your accusations of me relying too much on "seems," "appears," and "if", where the hell do you get the argument that "Their style of argument polarizes and poisons conversations among people who might be able to agree on most things that matter, including even basic conversations about the religious right"? I mean, what people are you talking about? People who are generally bothered by atheism, even without Hitchens around? People who like to pull Harris into their discussions just so they have something to bitch about? The two links in question you posted reflect your own little preoccupation with the New Atheists, with no significant data to prove how damaging they are to national discourse on religion. Yeah, Hitchens and Harris are loud mouth hypocrites, but at least they're not running for the presidency, pushing their agendas on our service people, or pushing stuff like HR Res. 888 into our government.

You said, "Your assertion that "Hedges and writers like him" are trying to establish a false equivalence of the threat between Christian fundamentalits and new atheists is wrong, as you would no doubt find if you actually tried to support it." Oh, but I have Fred--I write for this site, you know. I've pointed out on many occasions how effectively the Christian Right demonizes other religions, such as Wicca, traditional Native American faiths and Voodoo, to the point of making their Christo-centric worldview law here in the U.S. In contrast, I've never seen any influence remotely like that from the New Atheists. Ever. If you've read my stuff, you'd know damn well that I've been considering that kinds of things that Bruce and Hedges have to say for a long time, and that I'm qualified enough to come to the conclusion that Hedges' latest work is a waste of time.

Until you can prove me wrong with actual facts, please keep your New Atheist straw men to yourself.



by Mitchell on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 11:31:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
what you think qualifies you to recommend against a book you have not read.  But setting that aside, and returning to my comment, yes, your entire comment is premised on a series of strawmen that begin with "seems," "appears," and "if."

I provided links to one of my own posts on Harris and how his arguments interfere with reasoned discourse about the relgious right; as well as a link to a post by Max Blumenthal who makes some highly relevant points about Hitchens. There is no need to repeat myself here.

I am obviously well aware of how the Christian right demonizes others. As are Chris Hedges and Bruce Wilson. That does not mean that our respective points about Harris et al, are wrong, off topic, or are making false equivalences, even as there reasonable comparisons to be made on some points.

Your declaration that Harris et al off limits for criticism because you think they are not as important as Dobson et al, is silly, and misses the point. Again, no one has asserted any equivalence between the two general groups; certainly not Bruce, certainly not me, and not to my knowledge, Chris Hedges. Perhaps Hedges said or wrote something out of character, but I have yet to see it.

While I am no fan of the corrosive manner of discourse of some of the new atheist authors; they are far from my main area of interest and concern, as anyone who reads this site or any of my 25 years of writing in this field is well aware.  I will continue to raise points about any or all of them, as appropriate.

by Frederick Clarkson on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 12:31:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]



the title of Hedges' book comes from his provocatively titled opening statement from his formal public debate with Sam Harris, in which he lays into Harris and a few others. (the event was a fundraiser for Truthdig, which had published material by both writers.) Nowhere does Hedges make any generalizations about atheists or atheism. That is not what he is about, as you would know if you took to the time to read what he has to say instead of riffing off of a few words taken out of the context. That said, I don't happen to agree with Chris in using that style of unnecessarily provocative titling; especially since it does not reflect the content of what he had to say.

As for what is on topic, that is our call, thanks. Debates about site rules are also off topic on site. (But we read our email if anyone has something considered to say about these things, or anything else.)

As for this instance, the general standard has been that something is on topic if people make a good faith effort to discuss some aspect of the religious right and what to do about it. Sometimes that may mean bringing in material that might not, by itself, be on topic. That is not to be confused of course, with the efforts some people have made to confuse or conflate their personal/political agendas with the purpose of the site. I see a pretty bright line there, and can't think of an instance in the history of the site in which there was much of a gray area.

 

by Frederick Clarkson on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 11:18:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]




Your piece was well worth the time it took to read. I did not take your argument (as well as that of Hedges) as an attack on atheists in general, but more as a necessary reply to strident neo-atheists.

I have no use for folks who over-generalize over issues of faith pro or con. And contrary to what Harris believes, it is very possible to be both a person of reason as well as one of faith. In fact, it is when reason is removed from faith we start down the road to the militant brands of fundamentalist faith Harris so fears.

by Frank Cocozzelli on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 02:10:15 PM EST

I wasn't planning on writing it, but then I ran across Hedges' plug for his new book, which I hadn't known about. So it was a bit tossed-off.

But I'm glad I wrote it because, among other reasons, it led me back to the work of Robert A. Pape, who has laid the foundation for an actually rational approach to international terrorism as opposed to our current neo-colonialist crusading debacle.

by Bruce Wilson on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 03:50:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]



Chris Hedges does not seem to be very familiar with the atheist community or with some elements of American Christian fundamentalism. I have read American Fascists and his analysis of the Religious Right seems very incomplete. He almost exclusively covers the Dominionists, but barely mentions the Reconstructionists who have heavily influenced them as well as the white separatist churches and militias who are at the very right-wing fringes of the Christian community. In that book, he treats atheists and secular humanists as the boogymen of fevered right-wing paranoid nightmares, not as people who actually exist and feel threatened by "organized" religious extremism.

In the Salon article, it is obvious he is reacting to Hichens and Harris, but does not seem to bother differentiating these two individuals with atheists in general. The atheist community does not have leaders with organized followers, unlike the Christian fundamentalist community which does. If he does realize that Harris and Hitchens only speak for themselves and not for anyone else, he does not make it clear in the interview. Not being personally acquainted with Hedges, I can only read what he has written and said in the Salon article. I have not read his new book.

I say that Hedges is not familiar with the atheist community because he seems to equate atheists with neocons. This is patently ridiculous. Polls have shown that about 76% of atheists and agnostics voted for Democratic candidates in the last election, with atheists and agnostics having one of the highest rates of voter participation (about 80%). The remaining atheists and agnostics were libertarian with only single digit percentages voting for conservative or Republican candidates. This doesn't sound very hawkish or conservative to me. Compared to the average Christian, atheists are fiercely pro church-state separation. We realize that freedom to believe and practice one's belief, where it does not interfere with another's freedom, is the very cornerstone of American democracy and our voting patterns reflect this.

And in the Salon interview, Hedges says "Not believing in sin is very dangerous." He is conflating sin with ethics. Sin is a religious concept. Lets take the example of female genital mutilation. I am firmly against the practice of forcing this horror on innocent children. If one wants to have this done on oneself as an adult, its fine with me, but not on a child. According to the parents of these children, not having the procedure is a sin. Is it? I don't believe in the concept of sin because, as the old saying goes "One man's sin is another man's sacrement." Actions are either ethical or unethical based on some socially agreed upon standard. As times change, the standard changes.

I, like most of the atheists I know are firmly against the Iraq war and have been so before it started. Perhaps Hedges needs to spend time in the company of more atheists instead of a couple obnoxious authors. He'll find that we are a very diverse and individualistic community.



by Anna Lemma on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:50:55 AM EST
that atheists are a diverse community -- and Hedges would certainly agree.

Hedges is writing about a group of influential authors, not all atheists.


by Frederick Clarkson on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 01:34:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hi Fred

Bruce makes it clear that he is talking about just Harris and Hitchens, but I'm not so sure about Hedges. If I made a comment about Christians being power hungry theocrats out for world domination, you would be right to call me out on a statement like this. It would not be clear that I was specifically referring to Christian Reconstructionists instead of all Christians, even if I and my friends knew to whom I was referring to.



by Anna Lemma on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 01:12:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
with this point in mind. I saw nothing that would lead me to believe that Hedges seeks to conflate Harris, et al with all atheists -- although the interviewer's questions infer it.

The problem here is the unfortunate title of Hedges' book, which suggests the claim he does not actually make, (as far as I know, not having read it yet.)

by Frederick Clarkson on Thu Mar 20, 2008 at 04:08:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

as perhaps the publishing company wanted a more controversial title. Hopefully he does not generalize all atheists as Hitchens or Harris clones. If he does, then I would not trust his journalism skills and would find his standard of evidence very low.

by Anna Lemma on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 01:09:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Anna,

Please keep posting on this thread. Not having the last word on the topic of New Atheists, particularly on his own Web site, drives Fred nuts.

FYI, if you read Hedges' book, you'll see that he doesn't do much of anything to differentiate between "New Atheists" and, uh, "Old Atheists". Also, when he makes statements against "utopian beliefs" based on "the moral advancement of the human species ... through science and reason", it makes you wonder why he didn't write a book called "I Don't Believe in Star Trek". Just sayin'... =)



by Mitchell on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:29:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As the person who provoked this thread, I thought I'd chime in a bit :

I do not feel the need to defend everything Chris Hedges says or writes. Further, my suspicion is that Hedges knew quite well what he was doing in choosing his title : he was playing a gadfly and deliberately engaging in provocation. That's my take. Further, I don't feel any need to defend Hedges especially because he's fully capable of doing that work himself !

A bit of background too : about six months, while reading Hedges' "Christian Fascists", a book I'd be hesitant to recommend but which nonetheless raises critical points and provides invaluable psychological insights, in my view, into the nature of what Hedges terms "Christian fascism" (I'd be inclined to use other terms) I came across Hedges' mention of his theology professor who had shown Hedges private footage of the Deutsche Cristen during the rise of German fascism. I got in touch with my friend Steve Martin who managed to incorporate some of that footage into Martin's new "Storm Troopers Of Christ" documentary (which I'd highly recommend).

Hedges is fighting a broader battle and I think it's important to view this in that context. I don't condone broad-brush attacks on atheists for many reasons, not the least of which that atheists were one group targeted by Hitler's Nazis and Hedges is quite aware of that, I can assure you. I am sympathetic to Hedges' attack on the approach of prominent "new" atheists such as Dawkins, Hitchens and especially Sam Harris because I see these prominent public figures advocating positions that, to me, are very similar to those of the NeoConservative movement and also apocalyptic fundamentalists such as John Hagee.

The common thread between such "new atheists" such as Sam Harris (especially Harris), neconservatives and apocalyptic premillennial dispensationalists such as John Hagee, and also Christian supremacists and dominionist Christians, in my view, lies in their common belief, whether that's expressed through a secular or a religious idiom, that the world is somehow "broken" and can be "fixed" with widespread violence and even Global war. Sam Harris has written that there are some beliefs so dangerous that proponents should be hunted down and killed. Harris seems not to have considered that, under such a dictate, he might be one so targeted for expressing that very view : it's an Escherian paradox.

How can we identify people who hold views so awful that they should be hunted down and killed ? Harris spends a good deal of time specifically targeting Islam - that religion seems especially a target for his animus and Harris also appears unaware that the sort of scripture baiting he employs against Islam was used, in an early period by the Nazis, to justify attacks against Jews - because, claimed Nazi propagandists, Judaic scripture commanded Jews to act in depraved ways.

I don't the usual sorts of distinctions - rather than focusing on the religious/secular/atheist divides what concerns me are doctrines holding that our world can be somehow "fixed" and evil - whether that is construed as based in history, ideology, or religion, or whether it's viewed in eschatological terms - banished through massive violence that can somehow rid the world of some basic taint and so usher in a new, utopian age.

That sort of thinking is what is see in Sam Harris' writing and I'd argue that Chris Hedges sees it too and is equally concerned. My approach isn't the same as Hedges' but I'm equally concerned. One of the first steps in training humans to carry out acts of mass political violence, per the research of James Waller, author of "Becoming Evil", is to dehumanize groups targeted for such violence - rhetorically and otherwise. What I find interesting about the reaction of atheists to Harris' writing, which I've noticed personally, is difficulty in seeing how Harris' ideas, especially concerning Islam, dehumanize a substantial percentage of humanity by claiming that Islamic scripture has somehow tainted over 1 billion humans who are therefore inherently suspect. My hope is that athiests, as individuals or as some "movement" will come to recognize such demonization as something best avoided.

by Bruce Wilson on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 04:21:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]









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