Response to Pittsburgh Jewish Chronicle on Palin's Support for Settlements
Rachel Tabachnick printable version print page     Bookmark and Share
Sat Dec 12, 2009 at 02:37:38 AM EST
This week the Pittsburgh Jewish Chronicle published as a guest editorial (now archived here) an abbreviated version of my response to an article titled "Palin Joins Other GOP Prospects in Slamming Obama on Israel." The article by Eric Fingerhut to which I was responding referenced Palin's quote that "more and more Jewish people will be flocking to Israel," and the subsequent argument between J Street's Jeremy Ben-Ami and Abraham Foxman of ADL over Palin's support of the West Bank settlements.  Fingerhut, as well as both J Street and ADL, failed to acknowledge that Palin's statement, which contrasts with actual immigration trends to Israel, sounds like an expression of end times belief as opposed to a purely political stance on the settlements. The belief that Jews will soon be forced to move to Israel in large numbers is a common end times narrative found throughout Christian Zionist media, including that of the New Apostolic Reformation.  

Following is the full version of my response, complete with endnotes including links to the applicable documentation and videos. A previous article included a description of the distinctive end times narrative which is taught by the New Apostolic Reformation and the leaders, pastors, and mentors with whom Palin has close ties.

As an independent researcher specializing in the end times narratives of Christian Zionists, I have read hundreds of end times prophecy accounts written over a span of over a century.  There are significant variations in these narratives, but a consistent prerequisite to the Millennium, or prophesied 1000-year Christian utopia, is the regathering of all Jews in a "greater Israel."  These accounts include the belief that "fishers and hunters" are required to force Jews to fulfill this prophecy, with the fishers being described as Christian Zionists who entice Jews to move to Israel, and the hunters as those who will violently force the remaining Jews to flee their current home nations. Christian Zionists can not be the hunters, of course, but they need this wave of violent anti-Semitism for their prophecies to be fulfilled.

The warnings and description of this final holocaust can be found throughout Christian Zionist literature, including books by several major leaders who work with the Knesset's Christian Allies Caucus.(1) The sermon quote which resulted in presidential candidate John McCain's rejection of the endorsement of Christian's United for Israel (CUFI) founder John Hagee, was also about the "fishers and hunters" narrative.   After describing Hitler as a "hunter" who served a divine purpose in forcing Jews to move to Israel, Hagee's next statement in the sermon was , "Now they [the Jews] are physically alive but they're not spiritually alive. Now how is G-d going to cause the Jewish people to come to spiritual life..."  My research colleague, Bruce Wilson, produced the video segment which made national headlines in May 2008.(2) Hagee's sermon quote was from the third sermon in a 2005 series titled "Jerusalem: Countdown to Crisis,"  in which Hagee describes coming apocalyptic wars.(3)

Hagee sometimes shouts from the pulpit that before his sermon is over, his congregants could be "Raptured," which means snatched up to heaven before the imminent horrors of the Tribulation and the reign of the anti-Christ begins.  Hagee has taught that the anti-Christ is gay and partially Jewish,(4) and portrays Jews and Roman Catholics as partnering with this anti-Christ figure after the Rapture has taken place.  In his movie Vanished in the Twinkling of an Eye, Hagee features scenes that are eerily reminiscent of Kristallnacht, but it is churches instead of synagogues that are being burned by the partners of the anti-Christ, including in one scene that is labeled Berlin.(5)

Sarah Palin has close ties to leaders promoting a slightly different but very literal end time belief, that is sweeping through many nondenominational churches as well as some denominations.  Although this charismatic phenomenon claims to have 100 million participants worldwide, and many of its leaders are gaining clout in the Religious Right, the  movement as a whole has received little coverage in the mainstream press.(6)  It is called the "New Apostolic Reformation" or simply "Apostolic and Prophetic," and teaches that in preparation for the end time, churches must become unified under the authority of the movement's apostles and prophets.  They reject the idea of being Raptured and believe that they will remain on earth during the Tribulation to fight the battles of the end times themselves.  In this narrative, Jesus is unable to leave heaven until a Christian Israel, formed by Messianics (Jews accepting Jesus) and Christian Zionists, call for him to return to earth. Therefore, in this end times narrative, unconverted Jews become the obstacle to the Christian utopia.  The lingo used to describe the coming together of Messianics and Christian Zionists as the warriors who will usher in the millennial utopia is "one new man in Yeshua."(7)

This Apostolic and Prophetic movement encompasses many Christian Zionist leaders including several directors  of Hagee's CUFI. Their eschatology (end times theology) promotes aggressive activism to move the hands of the prophetic clock, including development of international support networks for Messianic communities in Israel.  This is the theology behind events like the Day of Prayer for the Peace of Jerusalem (DPPJ), an international  "pro-Israel" event which advertises the involvement of churches in 170 nations, and is endorsed by the Knesset's Christian Allies Caucus.(8) The leaders of this event are the nexus of Christian Zionist support for Messianics.(9)

Apostles in the movement include Messianic Dan Juster who has participated in the founding of Messianic seminaries and training in Israel, Russia, Ukraine, Argentina, Brazil, and the U.S., the Messianic Jewish Bible Institute, and the King's Jewish Voice.  The latter is part of a seminary founded by Jack Hayford, co-founder of the DPPJ.(10)  Juster has stated that "We who are Jewish are biblical New Covenant Jews, not Rabbinic Jews."(11)  Juster heads Tikkun International and is also the apostle in authority over a dozen Messianic congregations in the U.S. including Shoresh David in the Pittsburgh suburb of Monroeville.(12)  The combined proselytizing organizations and activism of the New Apostolic movement makes Jews for Jesus appear insignificant.

Apostle Mary Glazier, credited with building the spiritual warfare network in Alaska, told a conference audience on June 13, 2008 that Palin had joined her "prayer warriors network" as a twenty-four year old. Video and audio of the event are still marketed.(13) The editor of Charisma, a leading charismatic magazine, confirmed Palin's relationship with Glazier to religion writer Laurie Goldstein who reported it in a October 25, 2008 New York Times article.(14)  After the election, in a January 2009 article, Charisma confirmed Palin and Glazier's continued relationship.(15)  Charisma is published by Stephen Strang, a director of John Hagee's CUFI who is also an apostle in the International Coalition of Apostles (ICA) along with Glazier and Juster.(16)

The apostles and prophets of the movement believe that they are given continuous prophetic revelations from G-d, which are then disseminated through their prayer networks. These networks were used to distribute numerous prophecies about Sarah Palin, including one by Apostle Mary Glazier that implied that Palin would take "an office that she was mantled for" after a period of national mourning.(17)  Palin thanked her "prayer warriors across the nation" in an interview with James Dobson,(18) and more recently with Christian Broadcast Network.

Palin was "anointed" in a ceremony at her home church of Wasilla Assembly of God by Kenyan Thomas Muthee in 2005, prior to her campaign for state office.(19)  Muthee is  a international New Apostolic leader who is featured in a series of movies that have been viewed in churches around the globe. The movies are a teaching tool used to demonstrate the use of spiritual mapping and spiritual warfare as a way to take Christian "dominion" over government and society.  This involves the coming together of churches to pray for the expulsion of literal  demons which they believe prevent geographic areas from becoming evangelized. (20)

In the ceremony Muthee talked about the seven spheres of society over which the New Apostolics believe they must take Christian dominion.  This is organized nationally as the "Reclaiming the Seven Mountains of Culture" campaign which promotes the end of separation of church and state.(21)

Palin returned to Wasilla Assembly of God on June 8, 2008 to give the speech at a graduation of Master's Commission students who were finishing a three-year program in prophecy and spiritual warfare.  During the service Ed Kalnins, senior pastor of the church and an advocate of New Apostolic beliefs, spoke openly about Alaska as a refuge state in the end times.  This ceremony culminated in the presentation of swords to the graduating students and can still be viewed on the church's website.(22)

This is a fraction of the information that our research team gathered on Palin's relationship with the New Apostolic Reformation, some of which can be viewed in a special focus box at www.Talk2action.org.  We need to be aware that Palin's statement may have been more indicative of her end times beliefs than her politics, and that the mixing of the two is very dangerous for Israel and Jews worldwide.

End Notes

(1) These include Let My People Go by Tom Hess, Blowing the Trumpet in Zion by Richard Booker, and Israel My Beloved by Kay Arthur.  Arthurs's book was a Christian fiction bestseller and portrayed Jewish history through the character of Sarah, an unfaithful wife.  In the final pages, before repenting of her error, Sarah describes this final holocaust as "beyond the horrors of Sobibor, Treblinka, Auschwitz - all the death camps combined."

(2) Bruce Wilson, cofounder of Talk2action.org, provided the video to MSNBC's Countdown with Keith Olbermann. Wilson was credited in major media such as the NY Times and Washington Post.

3) The author has "Jerusalem: Countdown to Crisis" in audio and DVD format.  Hagee apologized to Abraham Foxman of ADL for a sermon which he claimed he delivered in 1999. The first screen on the DVD has a 2005 date marking and the publicized quote comes was taken from a sermon which included references to hurricanes Katrina and Rita, both of which took place in 2005.

(4)This quote is from Hagee's 2003 sermon titled "The Final Dictator" in the sermon series "Iraq the Final War."  Hagee states that the anti-Christ is gay, and "partially Jewish as was Adolph Hitler, as was Karl Marx."  A partial transcript from the sermon series is at http://www.talk2action.org/story/2008/6/1/163843/2726 (5) A screen shot of this scene is at http://www.talk2action.org/story/2008/5/28/6363/30439 with a collection of quotes by Hagee.

(6) Individually some of the New Aposotlics have received publicity.  Lou Engle hosts "The Call" stadium events around the country including the San Diego event in support of Prop Eight, and an event in Jerusalem.  Engle hosted Newt Gingrich and Mike Huckabee in "Rediscovering God in America" broadcast on GodTV.  Rick Joyner has restored part of Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker's Heritage USA and has formed a new Religious Right organization.


(7) The classic text for this ideology is Your People Shall Be My People by Dan Finto.  This book was part of the package for churches participating in the Day of Prayer for the Peace of Jerusalem as reported in an interview with co-founder Robert Stearns by Christian Broadcast Network in 2005 at http://www.cbn.com/700club/Guests/Bios/Robert_Stearns092605.aspx.

(8) http://www.daytopray.com/Home.aspx

(9)  From the top leadership of DPPJ down, these are evangelists who have played leading roles in both establishing Messianic networks, and in soliciting financial support from churches in the U.S. and around the world.  Nevertheless, leaders like co-founder Jack Hayford have been honored by Israeli dignitaries and Prime Minister Netanyahu has personally endorsed the ministry of co-founder Robert Stearns.

(10) http://www.mjbi.org/ME2/Default.asp"  See video on history of MJBI in 2003 promotional media at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhRweV61s68

(11) Juster wrote this in his book Jewish Roots and it is repeated in Dan Finto's Your People Shall Be My People, page 146.  This book has been sent in packets to churches participating in the largest international Christian Zionist event, the Day of Prayer for the Peace of Jerusalem.

(12) http://www.ruach.ws/congregations.html

(13) Transcript at http://www.talk2action.org/story/2008/10/8/131445/630

(14) http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/25/us/politics/25faith.html?pagewa nted=2&_r=1

(15) http://www.charismamag.com/index.php/features/2009/january/20101- the-faith-of-sarah-palin

(16) http://www.apostlesnet.net/prospectus.htm Strang is the director of CUFI Region 6.

(17) See http://www.etpv.org/2008/woimat.html" and a sanitized version broadcast by leadership at http://www.elijahlist.com/words/display_word/6897

(18) http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/10/22/politics/fromtheroad/entr y4538788.shtml

(19) http://www.talk2action.org/story/2008/9/24/13112/0816  Articlle includes video clip from ceremony.

(20) The Transformations series is produced by Sentinel Group.  The movies are marketed through numerous outlets including Sentinel's marketing is at http://www.sentinelgroup.org/dvdsets.asp  

(21) http://www.reclaim7mountains.com/

(22) http://www.wasillaag.net/2008.html




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Apocalypticism centred around Israel isn't confined to Messianic Jews and Christian Zionists. Writing for a Breslov publication, Aish HaTorah rabbi Pinchas Winston says he thinks 4/5ths of Jews will die before geula (Redemption):
http://www.breslev.co.il/articles/torah_portion/rabbi_winstons_wi ndow/geula_and_20_zot_habracha.aspx?id=13930&language=english

Are Rabbi Winston's views more or less dangerous than Sarah Palin's?

by Yeze on Sat Dec 12, 2009 at 09:57:53 AM EST

I attended John Hagee's 2007 Christians United For Israel Washington, DC summit. At the July 18 capstone event of the summit, the "Night To Honor" Israel, CUFI Regional Director Billye Brim told the audience, estimated at around 5,000, that "God has a plan for that hill!"

As Brim declared,

Yerushalayim, in Yerushalayim there is a hill, where Abraham offered Isaac, Moriah, the Temple Mount. On that hill there is a rock [Dramatic pause] where a holy arch stood. Today there's a dome over the rock. [Dramatic pause] God has a plan for that hill.

Kenneth Copeland gave the benediction to the event, to thunderous applause. Billye Brim launched her career from Copeland's ministry and, in a June 25, 2004 broadcast from Copeland's Believer's Voice of Victory television show, which goes out on broadcast networks that reach millions, Brim told her listeners,

"Now, God prophesizes [sic] these things in the Bible but it takes men, working with him, for them to come to pass. It takes you."

The 1/2 hour broadcast was the conclusion of a week long broadcast series, with Gloria Copeland and Billye Brim, entitled "Israel in the End Times."

I have a long audio recording (undated) from a revival event Brim spoke at, during which she describes leading a group of followers who secretly prayed on or around the Temple Mount. Billye Brim states,

We'll see it come down. Lots of other people have prayed it, God's put it all together. We just happen to be the ones that were there on November the ninth, the date of Kristallnacht, the date that the Berlin Wall fell over, and he had us there. And he had us saying "that Dome is coming down!" Hallelujah, Glory be to God! Bless the name of Jesus.

The International Christian Embassy Jerusalem is one of the leading Christian Zionist institutions. According to author and researcher Sarah Diamond, as detailed on page 2004 of her book Spiritual Warfare: The Politics of the Christian Right, former Stern Gang terrorist Stanley Goldfoot, says he has received money from the International Christian Embassy Jerusalem.

Described in the 1999 Freedom Writer/Public Eye story Millennial Madness, by Skip Porteus, as part of her research for her 1999 book Forcing God's Hand, journalist Grace Halsell,

...interviewed supporters of the Jerusalem Temple Foundation. One man, Terry Reisenhoover, a born again Christian from Oklahoma, told how he raised money for Jewish terrorists to clear the way to rebuild the Temple.

According to Reisenhoover, Stanley Goldfoot serves as chairman of the board of the Jerusalem Temple Foundation. Goldfoot is notorious for planting a bomb that destroyed a wing of Jerusalem's King David Hotel in 1946.

"He's a very solid, legitimate terrorist," Reisenhoover said admiringly of Goldfoot. "He has the qualifications for clearing a site for the Temple."



by Bruce Wilson on Sat Dec 12, 2009 at 02:13:32 PM EST
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Bruce, what is your take on my comment, out of interest?

by Yeze on Sat Dec 12, 2009 at 07:05:54 PM EST
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...who is one of the top US experts on terrorism. Stern spent four years traveling around the world to interview Jewish, Islamic, and Christian members (current and former) of terrorist (or would-be terrorist) groups.

It's titled Terror in the Name of God: Why Religious Militants Kill. The book suggests a common thread to such religious militancy - those who claim to speak for God are often those most likely to kill for God.

My thought is that all religions have eschatologies but, with a certain theological twist, the presumption of being able to carry out God's will by moving the hands of the prophetic clock, end-times beliefs can fuel religious terrorism... in the name of God.

In other words, as leading right-wing American intellectuals once upon a time were fully correct in pointing out, the eschaton is benign unless immanentized.

by Bruce Wilson on Sat Dec 12, 2009 at 09:33:14 PM EST
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So you're consistent about eschatology's role in all religions, fair enough then.

by Yeze on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 11:31:04 AM EST
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I think the combined Christian and Jewish end times frenzy is exactly what makes this so explosive.  It reminds me of a comment that Bernard Avishai made at the J Street conference. I don't have his exact words, but he said that there are about 600,000 Israelis who do not see themselves as part of a modern Israeli state but as ancient Judeans.  

Christian Zionism is also reaching a new level of millennial frenzy including groups that believe they are the heirs of the Israelites with rights to their own land in the West Bank.  Aggressive "Messianic" ministries in Israel, composed of Messianic Jews (in this context Jews who believe in Jesus) and Christian Zionists working together, now believe they have a divine mandate to move the hands of the prophetic clock and that "Rabbinic Jews" are standing in the way of a Israel-based utopian kingdom.  Support for this brand of Christian Zionist ideology is growing in Africa, Asia, and South America, often through activities endorsed by the Knesset's Christian Allies Caucus.

Meanwhile, in the U.S. there is still a constant stream of propaganda claiming that none of this has anything to do with eschatology and almost no Jewish organizations are acknowledging the inherent danger of this growing millenarian phenomenon.

by Rachel Tabachnick on Sat Dec 12, 2009 at 07:10:54 PM EST
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I believe that Yeze has missed a key point of the difference between Rabbi Winston's Eschatology and Sarah Palin's brand of Christian Zionism. These Christian Zionists believe that by moving Jews to Israel is they are actually bringing about the end-times. Rabbi Winston believes in an end-times Messianic era but he does not state than any human action can bring it about. Moving Jews to Israel and the aggressive proselytizing are human actions that these particular Christian Zionists believe will move the Apocalyptic Clock forward. For this reason, Sarah Palin's views are indeed more dangerous.

by protectdemocracy on Sat Dec 12, 2009 at 08:31:28 PM EST
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PD: The most radical of all the settlers believe that their action will hasten the coming of Moshiach. Like Mahmoud Ahmadinejad building nuclear weapons to push the world towards war and the coming of the Mahdi, so those who follow the Redemption doctrine attack Palestinians to provoke war and hasten Moshiach.

One prime example of this is Yaakov Teitel:
http://www.hurryupharry.org/2009/11/03/redemption/

They hate Palestinians because they are "Ishmael" and hate Israelis because they are "Erev Rav." Im not saying Rabbi Winston shares these views, but many of his more extreme readers do.

Now, if Christian Zionists are wrong, and Jews move to Israel anyway, who is harmed? If apocalyptic "price-tag" settlers are wrong, Palestinians are harmed.

Who are more dangerous to a democratic society: missionaries or terrorists? If your answer is "missionaries", then get some perspective.

by Yeze on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 04:54:35 AM EST
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Who is harmed? Jews and secular pluralistic society are harmed. Those Christian Zionists who preach the Hurricane Katrina occurred because there are Jews who have not fulfilled God's plan and are still living in America should not be seen as friends of the Jewish community or Israel, yet some Israeli and American Jewish leaders welcome them with open arms. The objectification of Jews as pawns in the Christian Zionist end-times scenario is unhealthy for Jews and pluralistic society. If migration of Jews can change the weather, the economy, or the course of world events, then Jews no longer enjoy the secular acceptance that they have worked so long and so hard to gain. All religious extremism is harmful. Any religious belief that includes repression of others should be resisted and challenged, including Christian Zionists who seek to move Jews for their own theological narrative. As for your question about whether missionaries or terrorists are a greater threat, you should consider the large overlap between the two groups. Many Christian White Supremacists groups, who have perpetrated more acts of terrorism in America than Islamic fundamentalists could ever imagine doing, are driven by their own end-times theologies.

by protectdemocracy on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 08:32:38 AM EST
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Messianic Jews aren't collectively responsible for the words of certain Christian Zionist preachers any more than all Jews are collectively responsible for the actions of price-tag settlers or the words of extremist rabbis.

"As for your question about whether missionaries or terrorists are a greater threat, you should consider the large overlap between the two groups."

What's the overlap between missionaries and terrorists? A missionary is a missionary and a terrorist is a terrorist. A missionary is someone who shares what he believes with you. If you don't like it, you can walk away. A terrorist wants to kill you, or doesn't care if you die. There is clearly a difference.

"Many Christian White Supremacists groups, who have perpetrated more acts of terrorism in America than Islamic fundamentalists could ever imagine doing, are driven by their own end-times theologies."

Yes, and Yaakov Teitel was also driven by end-times theology. He saw himself as an emissary of God. His actions do not reflect on those of other Jewish emissaries though.

"The objectification of Jews as pawns in the Christian Zionist end-times scenario is unhealthy for Jews and pluralistic society"

My point is that Jewish leaders routinely use Jews as pawns in their own game. Think about the various proselytising 'kiruv' Jewish groups such as Aish haTorah and Chabad. Think about the Zionist agencies encouraging aliyah. Are you telling me that they all act out of benevolence or ahavat yisrael, or are you prepared to accept that they too may have ulterior motives?

by Yeze on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 11:40:27 AM EST
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But Rachel, Orthodox Jews are just as apocalyptic as Messianic Jews. Think of Chabad. Think of all the hasidim who believe Redemption will come in 5770 (i.e. by September 2010). What about haredim who believe Moshiach will destroy Ishmael (Muslim world), Esav (Christian/Western world) and the Erev Rav (secular Jews) when he comes? Surely that belief is dangerous? Why do you only talk about Jews who believe in Jesus?

by Yeze on Sat Dec 12, 2009 at 07:33:56 PM EST
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Here's an apocalyptic Jewish movement opposed to Messianic Jews, Christian missionaries, and Gentiles: JewishIsrael - http://roshpinaproject.wordpress.com/2009/11/29/anti-messianic-je wishisrael-com-promote-promotes-anti-gentile-bloggers/.

by Yeze on Sat Dec 12, 2009 at 07:36:00 PM EST
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I recognize that there are radical Jewish movements impacting the political situation, however, in total numbers they are quite small compared to Christian Zionist movements.  The latter are impacting religion, particularly charismatic Christianity, in nations on every continent.  The international Day of Prayer for the Peace of Jerusalem is advertised as being held in 170 nations and 200,000 churches.

I agree that the growing conflict in Israel with Messianic Jews is problematic.  The Israeli government has thrown open the door to Christian Zionists for years and this result is no surprise.  Thirty years of stealth evangelism in Israel has brought about the anticipated "harvest."  Judaism is under assault from those who claim to love Israel and Jews the most.

by Rachel Tabachnick on Sat Dec 12, 2009 at 08:51:08 PM EST
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Rachel, I think you are understating the dispute between Israel and the Christian Zionist-Messianic Judaism alliance. Christian Zionists prophesy the end of Judaism as a religion distinct from Christianity, and the Christianization of Israel. The Israeli government has created its own dilemma by partnering with Christian Zionists, then finding itself confronting a movement that wants to Christianize Israel.

by protectdemocracy on Sat Dec 12, 2009 at 09:26:06 PM EST
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So should Israel accept funding from Chabad, who want to Schneersonize Israel?

by Yeze on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 04:56:34 AM EST
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all trying to bring the earth to its end of times drama.  Arguing about which extremist group is hastening the end faster is futile.  The rest of us  who are interested in our children and grandchildren sharing the earth in peace have to learn how to stand up to extremist of all brands.

The unique danger of Christian Zionism is that it is viewed as "Jewish friendly" while teaching narratives and memes that demonize Jews and Judaism. Because it is seen as benign it is virtually unchallenged and growing around the world, often with the endorsement of Israeli and Jewish leaders.  Volumes of Christian Zionist books include fantasy visions of a coming wave of anti-Semitism in which Jews would be forced to flee to Israel.  One Christian Zionist leader who works closely with the Knesset's CAC even includes his vision of trains transporting Jews out of major cities around the world.  We hear about Islamic terrorism every day in media outlets of all types, and in the Jewish community there is some understanding of the growth of Jewish extremism, but on the dangers of Christian Zionism there is almost complete silence.

by Rachel Tabachnick on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 08:28:58 AM EST
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"The unique danger of Christian Zionism is that it is viewed as "Jewish friendly" while teaching narratives and memes that demonize Jews and Judaism."

Well the Satmar appear Jew-friendly, but blame Zionists for the Holocaust and fight among themselves. The Gur Hasidim appear Jew-friendly, but then spray swastikas on Satmar synagogues because they refuse to vote in Israeli elections. Chabad seem friendly, but not if you come across Yitzhak Shapira - a Chabadnik who thinks it's OK to kill Gentiles - or Alex Artovsky, who runs Yad L'Achim.

Many Haredim in Israel appear Jew-friendly, but then have a total hatred of the "Erev Rav", i.e. secular Jews in Israel and America - a hatred which envelopes yourselves as much as it would me.

We're intelligent enough to work out that every friendly ideology has an ulterior motive, and every religious system has a theology about the End just as much as it has a theology about the Beginning.

When John Hagee makes a prophecy about the Middle East based on Ezekiel 38, is he a nutter? What about when Schneerson predicted the defeat of Iraq in the Gulf War based on Ezekiel 38, and was roundly hailed a prophet - does that make him as "extreme" as John Hagee?

I suppose my worry is that you are setting different standards for Messianic Jews than you are for any other type of Jew. We are normal people like yourself.

by Yeze on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 11:23:41 AM EST
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Most of the "Messianic Jews" I've encountered or heard about were pentecostals who CLAIMED to be Jews (but were not).  That is a common thing- there are pentecostal churches in this county that officially proclaim that they're the REAL Jews (which I find very offensive) and their members are, as a friend of mine put it, "Pentecostals who keep kosher"- they go and convince people that by becoming Christians, they become "New Testament Jews".  It's a short step from that to calling themselves Jews, and then to calling themselves "The REAL Jews".  

I would also say that the dominionist churches who do or promote the "Messianic Jew" stuff are considered by exit counselors to be coercive religious groups.  The bad thing is that they are so good at masquerading and hiding their identities and trying to manipulate people into their religion (ideology).  They are, as the article states, really HOSTILE to the REAL Jews- not the fakes that they promote.  I get so tired of people dismissing the danger they pose - "But it's a CHURCH, it can't be THAT BAD!!!"

In fact, the TRUE "Messianic" Jews I've heard about never claim to be so, even though they may practice Jewish traditions, have demonstrated Jewish ancestry, and have done so for generations.  They claim to be CHRISTIANS- of one of two different groups that I know of.  That's also true for the handful of Jews who converted to Christianity- they call themselves Christians and not Jews (but say they have Jewish ancestry and still follow some traditions).
 

by ArchaeoBob on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 04:53:08 PM EST
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ArchaeoBob - as a halachically Jewish believer in Jesus, I share your concern about Gentiles pretending to be Messianic Jews. It's confusing and insincere, I agree.

by Yeze on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 05:27:06 PM EST
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and anyone who claims to be "Messianic Jew" is automatically suspect.

The promoters of that stuff (Pentecostals/Dominionists/Fundamentalists passing themselves off as "Messianic Jews" because they attend one of several certain "Denominations") are the very people this subject of this thread is about.

by ArchaeoBob on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 05:33:37 PM EST
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I attend an evangelical church and I'm Jewish. I identify as a Messianic Jew. If it's not for you then fine, otherwise I can't see why it would bother you.

by Yeze on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 05:48:37 PM EST
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Evangelical Christians identifying themselves as Jews does bother me. Judaism and Evangelical Christianity are different religious beliefs. If a person can become an Evangelical Christian and still be a Jew, Judaism would no longer exist as a religion distinct from Christianity (which is, of course, the goal of Evangelical Christianity).

by protectdemocracy on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 07:18:22 PM EST
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Why can't I abandon Judaism if I choose to? I'm still Jewish, as is any Jewish atheist, Buddhist, or Chabadnik.

by Yeze on Mon Dec 14, 2009 at 05:32:00 AM EST
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When you embrace the evangelical worldview, and the need to convert the world to one set of beliefs, you have abandoned Judaism. You have the right to practice the religion of your choice, and I won't judge either one, but you can't be an Evangelical Christian and a Jew at the same time.

by protectdemocracy on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 07:25:33 PM EST
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Israel should not align itself with any group whose goal is to turn it into a theocratic state and religious/cultural monolith. However, Chabad is an internal issue within the Jewish community, and, unlike Christian Zionists has no political clout outside of Israel. The people claiming the Jews have mystical powers to bring about the end-times and are spreading this worldview to hundreds of millions of people around the globe are not Chabad, they are Christian Zionists.

by protectdemocracy on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 11:11:44 AM EST
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"The people claiming the Jews have mystical powers to bring about the end-times and are spreading this worldview to hundreds of millions of people around the globe are not Chabad, they are Christian Zionists."

Er, yes they are, they believe that a dead Jew has mystical powers to control the world and can single-handedly bring about the messianic age:
http://www.hurryupharry.org/2009/11/09/whose-moshiach-is-it-anywa y/
http://www.azure.org.il/article.php?id=519

by Yeze on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 11:26:23 AM EST
Parent

Chabad and other Hasidic groups are preaching their end-times message to other Jews. Christian Zionists have a global network of hundreds of thousands of churches and tens of millions of adherents aggressively trying to spread their Christian theologies. Religious tolerance and pluralism are not threatened by Chabad. Unless, you know of cases of Chabad trying to proselytize Christians, Muslims, Hindus, etc, to their view of Judaism, the comparison is irrelevant.

by protectdemocracy on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 05:39:43 PM EST
Parent
"Unless, you know of cases of Chabad trying to proselytize Christians, Muslims, Hindus, etc, to their view of Judaism, the comparison is irrelevant"

Of course they do:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1230111722534&page name=JPArticle%2FShowFull

Still don't believe me?

Watch this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxJ0H7Fxzog&feature=player_emb edded

by Yeze on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 05:47:05 PM EST
Parent

You apparently have not read the article to which you refer. Rabbi Shaul is not there to proselytize, he is there to teach the Noahide Laws to non-Jews..... Furthermore, according to the article, Chabad does not recognize or authorize his actions. Rabbi Shaul is part of a group that broke away from Chabad that believes that Schneerson was the Messiah...You're grapsing at straws here, Yeze. This has nothing to do with Chabad proselytizing non-Jews.

by protectdemocracy on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 06:36:35 PM EST
Parent
And did you watch the video? "Moshiach Wakba"!

by Yeze on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 06:40:14 PM EST
Parent

Shaul was marginalised because of his moshichist beliefs, not his proselytising.

by Yeze on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 06:41:50 PM EST
Parent
The article didn't say he was proselytizing, it said he was teaching Moahide laws to non-Jews.

by protectdemocracy on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 07:12:37 PM EST
Parent
That's still proselytising to an outsider. I don't think of a Christian missionary as a "proselytiser", rather someone trying to teach people about Jesus. It all depends whether you're inside or outside, and to those outside, Chabad sure seem proselytising.

Especially in that video.

Have you watched it yet?

by Yeze on Mon Dec 14, 2009 at 03:21:28 AM EST
Parent

It's a fine line. These fringe Chabadniks don't consider themselves proselytizers because they are teaching the Noahide laws to non-Jews. Jewish teaching says that the Noahide laws apply to non-Jews. Evangelicals aim to convert people to Christianity (as long as you accept the definition of Christians as those people who have accepted Jesus as their savior). In either case, I find it abhorrent. I believe in freedom of religion and thus I find the whole "my-church-is-better-than-your-church" worldview immoral. However, you still miss the point that you are comparing a fringe group of a fringe group to a movement with hundreds of millions of adherents and tremendous political influence. This ex-Chabad breakaway group is a minor annoyance and nothing more than a talking point for those who wish to justify aggressive proselytizing of Jews.

by protectdemocracy on Mon Dec 14, 2009 at 09:15:03 AM EST
Parent
I still don't think you've watched the video of mainstream Chabad missionaries in New York!

by Yeze on Mon Dec 14, 2009 at 10:03:40 AM EST
Parent
It is still irrelevant. I find proselytizing by anyone abhorrent. What a handful of Chabadniks choose to do or not do doesn't change that. Back to Rachel's point, the purpose of Messianic Judaism is stealth evangelizing, which is immoral.

by protectdemocracy on Mon Dec 14, 2009 at 10:50:08 AM EST
Parent
Except I'm a Messianic Jew who believes in open evangelising. So what's the problem now?

by Yeze on Mon Dec 14, 2009 at 11:13:04 AM EST
Parent
As I said earlier, I find the whole "my-church-is-better-than-your-church" attitude abhorrent.

by protectdemocracy on Mon Dec 14, 2009 at 12:18:05 PM EST
Parent
Why? This site is evangelistic, trying to spread its message, and so it should. Plus - ever heard of kiruv?

by Yeze on Mon Dec 14, 2009 at 12:22:00 PM EST
Parent
This one is getting too thin

by protectdemocracy on Mon Dec 14, 2009 at 12:49:14 PM EST
Parent






Comments getting way too thin :)

by Yeze on Mon Dec 14, 2009 at 10:04:35 AM EST
Parent












Rachel & Bruce: what do you make of the continued persecution of Messianic Jews in Israel and the routine defamation of Messianic Jews in mainstream media?

by Yeze on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 11:27:51 AM EST
Parent
A person should be able to worship in peace as they choose, whether they be Christian, Jewish, Muslim, a convert from one to the other, or whatever.  But being one religion and dressing it up as another for the purpose of stealth evangelism is dishonest and dishonors the beliefs of both. Imagine if hundreds of thousands of Jews (or Muslims) were adopting Christian customs, wearing crosses around their necks, taking seminary courses in specifically targeting  Baptists, Pentecostals, or Anglicans to convert to Judaism or Islam.  Imagine if Christian holidays/symbols/songs/customs were being recreated and rewritten with exclusively Jewish or Islamic meaning and devoid of Christian belief. There would be outrage and rightly so!  Yet there are Christian Zionists dancing around in tallitot and singing in Hebrew from Argentina to Singapore to Zambia while simultaneously praying for the rapid demise of Judaism (and many with the endorsement of the Knesset's CAC).

It is not surprising that an agenda to eradicate Judaism in the world's only majority Jewish nation has been met with hostility. Apostle Dan Juster speaks openly about the anticipated improvements in Israeli society and coming utopia to take place as "Rabbinic Judaism" is eliminated. Videos of the current conflicts between Messianics and mostly Orthodox Jews are used to raise further funds for more aggressive evangelizing in Israel. As ArcheoBob indicated, many of these "Messianics" have no Jewish background whatsoever but are simply missionaries. I am very familiar with the history of many such leaders in Israel.

In a world with so many needs it is tragic that such a huge percentage of the energy and assets of religion are spent for the express purpose of eradicating other religions.  Be what you want to be, Jewish or Christian, whatever denomination, and I will defend that right.  But a hybrid designed solely for the purpose of absorbing and/or eradicating Rabbinic Judaism can only bring heartbreak and disaster to both Christians and Jews and should be exposed as such.

by Rachel Tabachnick on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 07:31:18 PM EST
Parent

Seems odd that you'd disparage Messianic Jews for allegedly disrespecting both religious traditions whilst allowing atheists too!

"But being one religion and dressing it up as another for the purpose of stealth evangelism is dishonest and dishonors the beliefs of both."

So you think my faith is based around wanting others to be like me? Where do you get that idea from?

"Apostle Dan Juster speaks openly about the anticipated improvements in Israeli society and coming utopia to take place as "Rabbinic Judaism" is eliminated."

So do Orthodox Jews, who see "Rabbinic Judaism" as an interim phase between the Second Temple and Moshiach. What's your point?

As for this sentence: "Videos of the current conflicts between Messianics and mostly Orthodox Jews are used to raise further funds for more aggressive evangelizing in Israel. "

Ok then, look at the Ami Ortiz site and watch the videos: http://www.amiortiz.com. Now look at the fundraiser - money goes towards a Hate Crime Prevention Fund, not Jews for Jesus.

In any case, think about what neo-Nazis say about Jews and the "Holocaust industry." This idea has been recycled on some Far-Right blogs to talk about Messianic Jews and persecution. I really think you shouldn't be so dismissive of genuine bigotry against Messianics.

by Yeze on Mon Dec 14, 2009 at 03:19:22 AM EST
Parent

btw I hope you take comment about videos of persecution in the right way - you are obviously not a neo-Nazi and Messianic Jews aren't suffering a Holocaust  or anything remotely similar in Israel.

What I'm referring to is when people are cynical towards victims of persecution when they try to highlight it. We've all done it from time to time.

by Yeze on Mon Dec 14, 2009 at 03:24:42 AM EST
Parent

Pseudo-Jews don't know what the word persecution means, unlike the real ones.  They've never faced the real thing (unlike the Jews and others!)

Dominionists and fundamentalists cry "persecution" all the time- and the definition of the word that can be taken from their behavior is "Refusal to allow us to push our religion on you".  Another definition based upon Pentecostal/Dominionist/Fundamentalist behavior is "allowing non-Christians the same rights and privileges enjoyed by the P/D/Fs".  They THINK they've experienced persecution- but what they experience is usually a reaction to their attempts to dominate or persecute others in the name of their ideology.

The question that comes to mind regarding your claim to being a "Messianic Jew" is- what connection you have to the REAL Jews.  Were you Jewish before you converted to "Evangelical Christianity"???  (That name leaves a horrible taste in my mouth- because missionaries (evangelists) are the tools of domination and exploitation!!!!)  Do you have documented Jewish ancestry?  Have you been formally and legally adopted by a (REAL) Jewish family?  Or are you one of those fakes who think because they've "accepted Christ" and then try to follow what THEY think is Jewish tradition, claim to be somehow Jewish?

There is a saying "If the shoe fits- wear it!"  I would paraphrase it "If the shoe fits, maybe it belongs to you"!

Think about it.


by ArchaeoBob on Mon Dec 14, 2009 at 09:42:35 PM EST
Parent

"Do you have documented Jewish ancestry?  Have you been formally and legally adopted by a (REAL) Jewish family?  Or are you one of those fakes who think because they've "accepted Christ" and then try to follow what THEY think is Jewish tradition, claim to be somehow Jewish?"

Both my parents are Jewish - are you happy now?

by Yeze on Tue Dec 15, 2009 at 08:55:27 AM EST
Parent





"A person should be able to worship in peace as they choose, whether they be Christian, Jewish, Muslim, a convert from one to the other, or whatever.  But being one religion and dressing it up as another for the purpose of stealth evangelism is dishonest and dishonors the beliefs of both"

Does Talk2Action support the religious freedoms of hybrid religions, even if you don't like those religions?

by Yeze on Mon Dec 14, 2009 at 03:26:53 AM EST
Parent

Meet Shlomo Amar, Chief Rabbi of Israel:
http://roshpinaproject.wordpress.com/2009/12/11/freedom-of-messia nic-jews-end-of-worl/

A dangerous extremist for his exclusory & apocalyptic views?

by Yeze on Mon Dec 14, 2009 at 05:34:35 AM EST
Parent










Thank you for putting so much useful information in one place. You just condensed several bookmarks into one, with valuable added commentary. This will assist in explaining the situation to many otherwise uninformed individuals who are shocked when they learn the truth--a circumstance that seems to be appearing with greater and greater frequency and urgency.

by Panglos on Mon Dec 14, 2009 at 06:25:51 AM EST

The comment thread above is getting too small. To Yeze: the comment about Kiruv is, once again, irrelevant. Kiruv is an Orthodox Jewish outreach organization, which tries to spread its message of an Orthodox way of life to other Jews. It is not out telling the world that the solution to all the world's ills is for everyone to accept its religious doctrine. I don't support the activities of Kiruv. However, you can't compare this little Jewish outreach group to a religious belief that has hundreds of millions of adherents. I hardly think of Talk2Action as an evangelistic website. On the contrary, it promotes religious freedom and pluralism as much as any source I know. But I'm just a reader of the site, I would invite any of the contributing writers and editors to comment on this allegation.

by protectdemocracy on Mon Dec 14, 2009 at 12:59:38 PM EST
So your objection to Christian over Jewish evangelism is: there are more Christians than Jews? People are naturally "evangelistic" - that's no bad thing.

by Yeze on Mon Dec 14, 2009 at 02:07:08 PM EST
Parent
No, I said that I don't support Jewish Evangelism, or any other evangelism, and I don't support the activities of Kiruv. My point is that the activities of Kiruv are trivial, but you are using them to justify an aggressive evangelical movement whose stated goal is to eliminate Judaism as a religion distinct from Christianity. Your comment is, yet again, irrelevant.

by protectdemocracy on Mon Dec 14, 2009 at 02:17:13 PM EST
Parent
How is kiruv trivial and Christian evangelism aggressive? Believe me, Aish haTorah conversionists can be pretty aggressive!

So Christian missionaries want to eliminate Rabbinic Judaism?

Well, some kiruv missionaries believe that if enough people convert to Orthodox Judaism and keep Torah, the Messiah will come, which will also then be an end to Rabbinic Judaism.

by Yeze on Mon Dec 14, 2009 at 02:59:07 PM EST
Parent

You seem to be missing the point. I'll type slowly so that you can keep up....I clearly stated above that I don't support the actions of Kiruv or other Jewish groups who are trying to spread their particular brand of Jewish practice. My point, I'll state again, is that these groups do not have a worldview that requires everyone in the world to adopt their religious beliefs. I do consider that attitude to be arrogant and immoral.

by protectdemocracy on Mon Dec 14, 2009 at 04:02:15 PM EST
Parent
PD: No need to write condescendingly.

Why is it arrogant and immoral to expect everyone in the world to share your beliefs, as opposed to just expecting every Jew in the world to do so? (leaving aside the various Noahide ministries for now)

by Yeze on Mon Dec 14, 2009 at 05:09:29 PM EST
Parent

It is not okay for Jewish outreach groups to expect every Jew to accept a certain way of practicing Judaism and it is equally not okay for Evangelical Christians to expect everyone in the world to accept their religious doctrine. There is still the issue of a handful of Jews in a handful of outreach groups preaching a way of practicing their faith to other Jews, compared to hundreds of millions of Evangelicals committed to eliminating the practice of Judaism altogether. I realize that this attitude of "some Jews proselytize other Jews therefore it is okay for Evangelicals to proselytize Jews" is one of the talking points of missionary training. I still find it arrogant and immoral.

by protectdemocracy on Mon Dec 14, 2009 at 07:08:37 PM EST
Parent
"I realize that this attitude of "some Jews proselytize other Jews therefore it is okay for Evangelicals to proselytize Jews" is one of the talking points of missionary training"

As I'm not a missionary, this seems like a convenient way to sidestep the facts.

by Yeze on Mon Dec 14, 2009 at 07:13:36 PM EST
Parent

You said earlier that you practice open evangelizing. We're arguing semantics here.....I'm afraid we've lost the point of this discussion long ago, so let me try to summarize. I respect your right to practice your faith. However, if you practice Evangelical Christianity, and call yourself a Jew, you are being deceptive to others and more than likely to yourself. Admit that you have embraced Evangelical Christianity and abandoned Judaism. It's okay; many people choose to embrace religions other than the ones into which they were born. There are elements of your faith that I find objectionable, mostly the need to convert others to your beliefs,but I still respect your right to your beliefs. There are elements of my faith to which you object, but I expect to be able to practice my faith as I see fit, free from harassment by other Jews who see my practice as inadequate or by those of other religions who see my faith as inferior to theirs. Pluralism and tolerance are essential....

by protectdemocracy on Mon Dec 14, 2009 at 07:45:14 PM EST
Parent
"being deceptive to others and more than likely to yourself. Admit that you have embraced Evangelical Christianity and abandoned Judaism."

Why do you get to say what my beliefs and identity are, when you don't know me at all?

I don't know you, so I don't comment on your beliefs and identity.

Whatever happened to defending an idea based on the strength of logic, rather than using tu quoque arguments?

by Yeze on Tue Dec 15, 2009 at 08:49:24 AM EST
Parent

Repeating the same talking points is not defending an idea based on logic. I am prepared to leave this as a disagreement.

by protectdemocracy on Tue Dec 15, 2009 at 10:12:58 AM EST
Parent
Fair enough.

by Yeze on Tue Dec 15, 2009 at 05:38:50 PM EST
Parent












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