Crazy For Creationism: Legislators In Ind. And N.H. Seek To Undermine Instruction About Evolution
Rob Boston printable version print page     Bookmark and Share
Wed Jan 04, 2012 at 11:00:41 AM EST
It looks like opponents of creationism are going to have their hands full in 2012. The new year is just a few days old, and already we've seen several anti-evolution bills popping up in the states.

In Indiana, state Sen. Dennis Kruse has introduced S.B. 89, a bill that would allow public schools in the state to "require the teaching of various theories concerning the origin of life, including creation science, within the school corporation."
Kruse has been on this crusade for a number of years and has introduced versions of this bill before. They always died. But Republicans now control the state Senate, and Kruse is chairman of the Senate Education Committee. From this powerful perch, he can agitate for this misguided legislation.

There remains one huge problem with the bill: It is patently unconstitutional. As Genie Scott, executive director of the National Center for Science Education, told the Fort Wayne Journal Gazette,  Kruse's bill would run afoul of Edwards v. Aguillard, a 1987 Supreme Court ruling that struck down a Louisiana law requiring "balanced treatment" between creation science and evolution.

"The law is very, very clear on this," Scott said. "If this bill is passed, it is going to be challenged, and they will lose. The case law is so strong against them."

Meanwhile, some New Hampshire legislators have introduced a pair of truly kooky bills. State Rep. Jerry Bergevin's bill, H.B. 1148, would order the state board of education to "[r]equire evolution to be taught in the public schools of this state as a theory, including the theorists' political and ideological viewpoints and their position on the concept of atheism."

Bergevin believes that teaching evolution leads to Nazism and school shootings.

"I want the full portrait of evolution and the people who came up with the ideas to be presented," he said. "It's a worldview and it's godless. Atheism has been tried in various societies, and they've been pretty criminal domestically and internationally. The Soviet Union, Cuba, the Nazis, China today: they don't respect human rights.... [W]e should be concerned with criminal ideas like this and how we are teaching it... Columbine, remember that? They were believers in evolution. That's evidence right there."

A separate New Hampshire bill, H.B. 1457, introduced by Reps. Gary Hopper and John Burt, would mandate that the state board of education "[r]equire science teachers to instruct pupils that proper scientific inquire [sic] results from not committing to any one theory or hypothesis, no matter how firmly it appears to be established, and that scientific and technological innovations based on new evidence can challenge accepted scientific theories or modes."

This bill is more of the tiresome "evolution is just a theory" stuff we've been seeing out of the creationists for years.

But science marches on, and those who labor to keep our young people in ignorance are powerless to stop it. Inconveniently for them, life forms keep evolving. For example, you might have seen this interesting story about a hybrid shark recently found off the coast of Australia. It is being called an example of evolution in action.

Call me old-fashioned, but I believe our children ought to learn accurate information, not biblical literalism pretending to be science. When we short-change our kids by downplaying instruction about evolution, we're only hurting them. Unless they go to a Bible school or an institution run by Jerry Falwell's sons, in college young people will be taught evolution upfront and without apology. They'll do better in Biology 101 if they get some exposure to the idea in secondary school.

I'm sure we'll see more dangerous bills like this in other states as the year goes on. Last year, anti-evolution bills were introduced in a spate of states. Thankfully, all were defeated. Advocates of good science education and church-state separation will have to work hard to achieve the same results this year.

Our children deserve nothing less.



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Crazy For Creationism: Legislators In Ind. And N.H. Seek To Undermine Instruction About Evolution | 18 comments (18 topical, 0 hidden)
Get everything backwards (5.00 / 1)
I cannot believe the idiocy of those people.  Teaching evolution leads to school shootings?  I would tell them that BULLYING leads to school shootings, and bullying comes from a group ("Good Christians" aka dominionists are usually the case) telling people that it's ok, if not good, to demonize others.

Every time I hear of weapons being brought to or used in schools, I invariably find out later (usually from a different source) that bullying was involved, and usually the kid in trouble had been bullied and was desperate.  Recently in Florida a boy knifed another... and thank God, the judge found it to be self-defense as he'd been the target of bullies and was being attacked.  That's usually not the case (not being punished), because you're not supposed to defend yourself, you know.  You're supposed to "Take it like a MAN! (or woman!)"  and not stand up for yourself, because then you'd be rocking the boat.  The fact is, the schools don't want to let people know how bad a problem bullying is, and that often the school faculty and even staff participate (actually happened to me as a kid).

Even worse, then the schools throw money at failed programs that promote more of the hostility (for instance, stereotyping poor people and certain minorities) and ignore programs that do work.  Reason: "They were created by a LIBERAL!".  That is the sort of complaint I've heard when a program I know about that is very effective in fighting racism, bigotry, and bullying in the schools is mentioned.  

But then, they invert everything, and are masters at projection.  Just about everything they've said of "liberals" and "non-Christians" (not like them) have actually been what they've been doing or later start to do.  I remember how they used to fuss about the "One World Order", but everything they said fits their goals perfectly... especially the NAR.

If this country is ever going to live up to its promise, and not down to its present and past reality, the youth will need to learn the truth (evolution for instance, and accurate history) and also to think for themselves.  They will need to learn the failures, the abuses, the wrongdoing, as well as what was right (even if it's only in words).  They especially need to learn to identify the different lies and techniques used to control people, and how to see past them.

In other words, they need to be taught to be impervious to the dominionists.


by ArchaeoBob on Thu Jan 05, 2012 at 08:07:03 PM EST


Apples and oranges (5.00 / 1)
A legal battle between "creationists" and "evolutionists" is not necessary or productive. Most folks (even the ones who believe in a creator) have no problem with evolution. And most scientists would quickly agree that evolution isn't anti-God or anti-Creator. What's needed is less fight and more assurance. I think a lot of theists fear that the public schools will be used to teach that science proves that the Bible is wrong, what churches teach is wrong, and that there is no Creator. Rather than fighting to get "creation" or intelligent design taught in school, they should be looking for assurances that science teachers won't bash theism. And, likewise, educators should be looking for reasonable ways of making clear that science and evolution are about changes in the natural world and not about the origin of life or the universe, etc. What's lacking is a shared vision of what is appropriate in the classroom and a trust that science teachers will teach science and not philosophy. (I don't know why the paragraph breaks in my comment don't show up.)

by dscribner on Fri Jan 06, 2012 at 06:59:09 PM EST
Teaching religion as science. (5.00 / 1)
First, you're not stating accurately what is going on.  What the dominionists (and their cousins the fundamentalists) are doing is trying to force creationism into the science classroom.  They deny evolution.  They don't want evolution taught.  They want the Bible taught.  They want a literal understanding of the Bible pushed on kids.  They want (and this is documented) evolution BANNED from the schools, if not banned altogether.  They even want those of us who teach evolution to be re-educated, or let's just say permanently banned from life (read Rushdoony and some of the other dominionist "thinkers" and leaders - it's there in black and white).

Science teachers do not go into the churches and tell people what to believe (nor would we want to).  They, however, insist on accuracy and truth, and it is important that everyone learns a little about science (it's harder to hoodwink or bamboozle someone who knows a bit about science and the scientific method, and who had learned how to think critically).  They try to get people to look critically at claims and to examine the evidence.  They teach science in the science classroom... and you cannot teach science accurately without teaching evolution.  Evolution is fact.  I have never encountered a scientist who wanted to teach evolution in a church... although quite a few wanted to try to explain why faith and science are not antagonists.  The churches wouldn't let them (actually had that very situation in a church we used to attend).

It is a false stereotype that scientists (and science teachers) are atheists.  I am a scientist, I've taught and helped to teach science, and I am Christian (just not a type accepted by dominionists).  I know a LOT of scientists and while some are atheist, others are also Christian, I know quite a few who are Jewish, and even a few Muslims (all good people).  They have no problem accepting evolution as fact while believing in God (exception, of course, the few atheists).  We don't teach that evolution disproves theism... it's not a legitimate argument.  We DO say (accurately) that science has disproved a literal reading of the scriptures.  That can be demonstrated.

The hostility and violence of the people (dominionists) who insist on creationism being taught as science is scary.  When I was an undergraduate, I saw other students disrupt classes, insult, interrupt, and even badger the teacher.  I met students whose pastor had dictated their curriculum, so that they wouldn't be exposed to evolution (a couple were so angered by learning just how much they'd been lied to that they became atheists).  As a graduate assistant, I helped to teach several 4000 level courses.  We had to throw students out of classes for attacking other students, for disrupting the class to the point where continuing was impossible (without pitching them out), and many times had to remind them that they should show the same respect to others that they insisted on for themselves.  It's been so bad that many of the professors discuss evolution in the very first class - and tell the students if they can't accept that evolution is foundational to the science being taught, they should go ahead and drop the course right there.  In one class, I witnessed over 50 students (in a class of about 250) walk out upon hearing that announcement, some in a rage.  In my private life, let's just say that I've experienced their violence and it's cost me a lot - just because I have taught evolution and support teaching it, while oppose teaching creationism.

Incidentally, I oppose teaching creationism because it's not science.  I've suffered because I insist on science in the science classroom.  Now, science has also supported parts of the Bible.  Indeed, you wouldn't have the Bible today if it wasn't for science - translation of ancient languages is a science (and they use/consider change over time - evolution, when it comes to languages).  I myself use science (or the work of other scientists) to try to understand just what Jesus was trying to teach us.  The message I found was one of Love, of Kindness, of Hope, and most of all, one of Freedom (and I would argue peaceful resistance to oppression).

For me, science compliments and enhances my faith.  I know this is true for some of my colleagues.  The dominionists deny we have faith because we allow science to inform and expand on faith.  That rather goes against the idea of us reassuring them, now doesn't it?  I hope now you understand that there is no equivalence between our insisting on science being taught in the science classroom, and their insisting (and willingness to use violence) to deny science and teach religion in place of science.

by ArchaeoBob on Fri Jan 06, 2012 at 11:25:13 PM EST
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Well put! (none / 0)
Thanks for the thoughtful reply and for sharing from your own experiences. I think we're mostly in agreement. My point was, mainly, that a lot of theists feel needlessly threatened by the teaching of evolution. It worries them that if teachers explain how life on earth (or the universe itself) was formed without the intervention of a creator, it will be the same as teaching that there is no creator. I think a lot of that anxiety is unnecessary. And I think a lot of the classroom drama you described could be assuaged if teachers were to be a bit more proactive in saying, "Regardless of what you may have heard from others, science is not in conflict with theology. In this class we'll be teaching about science. Nothing we cover in here should be taken as any kind of argument for or against anyone's world view or theology." And, likewise, I think theists need to stop being so dog-gone sensitive about it. They need to teach their young people (and the parents of their young people) that there's nothing to fear from science education. Now as for the dominionists -- sure, there will always be those folks in any argument who will accept nothing more than the complete collapse of the opposition. But I wasn't referring to those folks.

by dscribner on Fri Jan 13, 2012 at 06:42:56 PM EST
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Actually (none / 0)
We do tell them this, in the beginning of class.  Usually under the banner of noninterfering magisteria.

The problem isn't "theists", after all, I am a theist (and most of the scientists I know are theists in one way or another).  The problem is a specific set of subsets of "Christianity" (with a few from other religions) who insist on a literal interpretation of their holy book(s).  

by ArchaeoBob on Sat Jan 14, 2012 at 05:51:56 PM EST
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Evolution on Sunday Morning (5.00 / 1)
I have had the opportunity to preach on evolution on more than one opportunity, as a signer of the Clergy Project, a project initiated by Prof. Michael Zimmerman, an effort to engage communities of faith in connecting the bonds between science and religion.  As a major step in this engagement, it encourages that faith communities use the weekend closet to Darwin's birthday to address the issues of science and religion as they interact, from the perspective of the religious communities.

The most cogent summary of the issue that I have ever heard is:

Science and religion are not in conflict.  They have different subject matters, and most importantly, they ask different questions.  Science asks:  How? and When?  It deals with the natural world around us; it uses methods that are able to be replicated by others (the heart of the scientific method) and it demands that its theories account for all data available.  When the data change, so does the theory.

Religion (or faith) asks different questions.  Religion asks:  Why?, and Who?  It asks questions about purpose and meaning.  It does not rely on replicable data, but on the experience of its seekers and its books of revelation.  

The Bible, the Christian book of revelation, is not a science book.  It is a witness to faith.  It is misused when it is used in scientific discussion:  Either to support scientific theory or to disprove it.  The Bible was written millennia before "science" was even articulated as a concept in much of the western world.

As I listen to my book of faith, I find meaning for my existence.  As I study science, I find increasingly that my wonder in the intricacies of the created order, increases with this knowledge.    If relationships between atoms vary by less than a percent; the world would no longer exist.  The natural world is a wondrous complex of interrelationships; the more we learn, the more wonder lies exposed.

As a member of the clergy, I believe that my God weeps, as the wonders of faith AND the wonders of the natural world are used as weapons against others.  We urgently need not only a truce between the two sides of this uniquely American 'war', and, indeed, we urgently need a willingness to learn from the other for the truths that both sides have to give.  Unfortunately, much of the 'war' seems to come from organized religions.  I call on my colleagues, especially, to find a way to end this war.

Pr Chris

by CalSailor on Sat Jan 07, 2012 at 12:56:56 AM EST

Good post (none / 0)
I would suggest that if you were to ask the militant atheists why they are so hostile (talking about the ones that attack Christianity in general), they would reply that it was because of the attacks from "Good Christians" (dominionists and like ilk) who insisted on trying to convert or destroy them.  I know for most of the more militant atheists I've encountered, that was the case.  In fact, I can think of a couple of atheists who became far less militant once they realized we weren't out to convert them, and that we accepted them as they were.  I think they started understanding that there are Christians who believe that accepting people where and AS they are without trying to change them, and who are hostile to proselytizing (evangelizing) because we believe that is contrary to the core of Christianity and not acceptable behavior.

A common complaint (which I've heard from satanists too) is that they are portrayed as amoral and evil.  The fact is, I have yet to meet an amoral or evil atheist, and the one satanist I've talked with also seems to be quite a moral and decent person (I've heard similar statements from friends regarding atheists and satanists they know).  The characterization laid on atheists comes from only one source - the more fundamentalist churches.  (The satanists... I admit that is a more complex situation.)

Thus, I argue that the "war" is ALL due to the "Good Christians", the ones who believe they must force themselves on others.

I've discussed non-overlapping magisteria with the classes I've helped teach (or taught), but I think an even more valid point is to talk about the Bible and how it came to be... looking at it through a scientific lens so to speak.  That explains why there are disagreements and controversies, and why this "war" exists in the first place.  In my experience, that is faith-building.  It is the insistence on blind acceptance of a literal understanding of the Bible (and the associated abusive beliefs and behavior) that is faith-damaging.

by ArchaeoBob on Sat Jan 07, 2012 at 10:48:02 AM EST
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Not ALL on one side (none / 0)
I would agree with you that a huge amount of the conflict is generated from the fundamentalist (the "extremist" version of a religion--all of them have it...and I would argue that atheists have such tendencies, too) Christian camp which is threatened by any reading of the bible which, they fear, is somehow taking away from its authority.  

But I don't agree that ALL of it is.  This has been brought home to me on the HuffPost blog comments sections.  There are activists from the atheist point of view who make it a point to go after posters writing from a religious point of view.  I am not talking about comments on  topics such as  evolution/creation debate, or the so called question of "proofs of God's existence" type of articles.  I am talking about blogs on the religion pages of HuffPost that are written by a member of the faith community to discuss a subject within the faith community.  I'm talking about such things as:  prayer practices, church history topics, liturgy, the idea of "chosen people" among Jews and how they live this biblical understanding, etc.  People who post comments within the topic are regularly attacked (I have no other word for it) by very angry atheist posters who denigrate the possibility of the existence of deity, of the intelligence of believers, etc.

It is not just that they disagree with the possibility of God, but they have made posting on these pages something to be undertaken carefully.  I don't mind arguing my position on the topic of the day, even if it is the question of the existence of God, or the creation of the universe, etc.  But I really am frustrated when a post on a topic that has NOTHING TO DO with these issues is just attacked and I as a Christian am somehow stupid, gullible, uneducated, etc.

If someone has come to be an atheist fine.  I will respect your position.  If you ask me to debate, I will.  Otherwise, I'll read your post from your point of view, and I'll attempt to respond on a respectful basis.  But don't attack me or others when we are carrying on a discussion that is completely off-topic to thse attacks.  The HuffPost editors do nothing on this topic.

There is plenty of blame on both sides of this debate.

Pr Chris

by CalSailor on Tue Jan 10, 2012 at 01:11:50 AM EST
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You're missing the point (none / 0)
What motivated them in the first place to comment like you described?

The treatment they received at the hands of "Good Christians" previous to that posting.

I've seen it too many times in, as a friend of mine calls it, "The Meat World".   I've seen it a few times on Blogs too, but then I avoid almost all religious sites (or religious topic areas of places like HuffPost) because I encounter so many damned fundamentalists.   I know of cases where atheists, once exposed to Christians (the real ones) who didn't force fundamentalism on them or try to convert/correct them or demanded that they do religious observances, over time became more tolerant and start to relax.  They are so used to being harassed and attacked that they think EVERYONE who is religious/deist is just another source of abuse and out to try to convert them.

I also don't understand trolling, but having had to deal with hundreds of "Good Christian" trolls and even a "Good Christian" internet stalker over the last couple of decades (I've been online since the early days of bulletin board services), I know it's a huge problem.  May I suggest that next time you're on a religious section and you encounter an atheist acting like a troll, that you ask that person how she or he would feel if someone came to their favorite atheist blog and started preaching at them.  Remind them that they should consider treating others as they would want to be treated.  (That, by the way, is also generally practiced by atheists, as well as found in every religion.)  I'd suggest doing it without bringing religion into the conversation - it's easy to do if you try.

No, I stand by my comments.  I've seen what "Good Christians" are capable of and how far they'll go, and I know that if they hadn't been such a problem, they wouldn't face opposition.  This, by the way, has also always been a problem with the churches, and is something that needs to be stopped.  Remember the Golden Rule.  It's least practiced by "Good Christians".

by ArchaeoBob on Tue Jan 10, 2012 at 10:15:53 AM EST
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Why Christians v atheists? (none / 0)
I'm quite happy to discuss my Christianity; I love science and history, anthropology, linguistic study of the Bible, and its meaning for today, but I do find it amazing how evangelical some atheists are. I did not think of people hurt by the Church, but when trolls are on many boards with unrelated comments, that's not appropriate.

by arachne646 on Wed Jan 11, 2012 at 05:55:33 PM EST
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Trolls may be hurt people (none / 0)
I don't understand trolling, but I've seen it enough times.

Could it be that the atheist trolls are trying to somehow compensate or deal with the problems the church have created for them?  That's about the only logical reason I could think of for such behavior.

"how evangelical some atheists are"  I've seen that a couple of times, but most of the atheists I know are more of a "You do your thing and I'll do mine - don't force yours on me and I won't force mine on you" attitude.   "Good Christians", on the other hand, are at least as aggressive and far far more common.

I've met a lot of people who like to discuss religion, but without trying to convert people.  I'm a firm believer in religious pluralism, and the only people I don't like to talk with are fundamentalists (people who reject science and insist that their beliefs are the only "Truth") and dominionists (people who try to bring about theocracy and force their version of "Christianity" on everyone else).  

by ArchaeoBob on Wed Jan 11, 2012 at 08:17:17 PM EST
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unconvincing (none / 0)
Bob:

I'm sorry but on this reply I don't find your argument at all convincing.  Just because someone, or several, or even alot of "someones" have gone after them in the past, does NOT JUSTIFY attacks by them against people who were not part of the prior discussion.

If the untheistic point of view is so rational and thought out...then I would expect them to be able to discern that candidates are not attacking them, and then reply in kind.

Just because someone was discriminated in the past does not give them the right to turn around and discriminate against a third party.  This "eye for an eye" doesn't get us anywhere.  We claim to live in a country where each of us is responsible for our own point of view.

In short, if you are going to try and say, well, going back to some previous date gives these people a "free pass" to go after other just does not wash.

If you want to be credible on this topic, you cannot whitewash them because their group (atheists) have had bad experiences from another group (religious people) and that gives them license to retailiate against another person, not part of the history.  

I have called out religious posters when they have gone after others, and I have also been trashed for no reason by antheistic posters.  I would expect people like you to go after them.  Would you?

Pr Chris

by CalSailor on Fri Jan 13, 2012 at 05:13:39 PM EST
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Seeking accuracy (none / 0)
I have always spoken for the truth, at least as much of it as I can.  Recently an atheist insisted that Jesus never existed (several stated that, actually).  They said that there was no evidence beyond the Bible for His existence.  (Another has said that the person didn't believe that Jesus really existed.)  Well, that isn't accurate and I said so (on multiple occasions over the last several weeks).  Josephus (I think I have the name spelled right) the Jewish historian mentioned him, and there were Roman reports also mentioning him.

Indeed, there is more evidence for His existence than for many other generally accepted religious figures.  (Yet people generally accept their existence as living beings, while denying His.)

That evidence only proved that He existed.  It doesn't say a single thing about the religious aspects.

So I'm not giving them a pass or whitewashing them.

On the other hand, the dominionists are a constant and painful problem.  They invade everywhere they can, trying to push their religion into everyone's face.  They cause the reaction and hostility... and often innocent people are caught in the crossfire.  They remind me of the slander I was taught about the Arians... that they would provoke the authorities (and the non-Christians) and then the "innocent trinitarians" would suffer the consequences (from what I've learned, I suspect it was the other way around).   BTW, we're not talking about a small occurrence that happened long ago, and they're still angry about it.  Atheists are persecuted by "Good Christians" (fundamentalists and dominionists especially) almost constantly, and usually they've been attacked for what they believe in very recent time (like in a couple of friends' case, as recently as last week).  To say the treatment meted out to the atheists is equal to what "Good Christians" think they've experienced is false equivalence and denies the danger and impact of dominionist "Christianity" to society.

After all, this blog is dedicated to researching and fighting against dominionism.   If it wasn't a problem, this blog (and several others) wouldn't exist - and people wouldn't have to struggle so hard to protect separation of church and state.

That being said, I reiterate that I don't accept being a troll, and don't really understand it.  The only reason why someone would behave that way is because of something they're going through.  Having seen how atheists (and LGBT people and racial minorities and the poor and ...) are treated by the "Good Christians" (dominionists and some fundamentalists), their behavior can be comprehended as a reaction to abuse.  (Trolling is still wrong.)

by ArchaeoBob on Sat Jan 14, 2012 at 06:39:48 PM EST
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Can't you just admit it? (none / 0)
Bob:

I've read your replies to several of my posts.  They basically say:

  1.  I (meaning you) call out posters who troll (good for you, and I mean it); I'm not so worried about the trolls who want to believe there never was a Jesus as I am the trolls who go after posters who have done NOTHING to provoke them.

  2.  An insistance that these trolls are just the victims of previous abuse by evangelicals.  Maybe they are; I'll even grant that they are.  But if they are so educated in science and philosophy as they claim, then they have the responsibility to work through this past in their lives and not carry on this war.  Instead, they are doing exactly what you say the evangelicals/fundamentalists did to them, and just striking out at third persons, who were not involved in this history.

  3.  Why can't you just admit that trolls are doing harm and have a responsibility to monitor themselves and not come up with excuses for them?

Pr chris

by CalSailor on Thu Jan 26, 2012 at 02:19:50 PM EST
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It is the Year 152 A.D. (After Darwin) (none / 0)
Let the ignorant wallow in their rapture.  Let's walk away and start a brave new world.

I may be considered a crank on the left but the Book of Revelation is to me a spec script, a stage play, a fancy Greek propaganda piece read by a narrator in an amphitheater with fancy gizmos giving off illusions of fire and smoke etc. It is a spec script that the insincere inventors of Constantine's Army religion threw into the stew. It is the extra lie that most liars tell that usually gives the whole con away.

Does anybody out there know a state legislator brave enough, secure enough and wise enough to sponsor, give birth to a new idea, a change in the calendar we now use which seems to be the cornerstone of the fantasy, delusion of the right's carved in stone entitlement to see only their "truth" and nobody else's truth(s)?

Rather than being two thousand odd years since the birth of Constantine's mythical propaganda god/tool, it is the Year 152 A.D. (After Darwin).  I date the calendar from November 1859, the publication date of O.T.O.O.S, On The Origin Of Species, the most important date in the history of the human race, a true birth date for the birth of scientific reasoning.


by Mike McShea on Sun Jan 08, 2012 at 03:48:32 PM EST

OTOOS (none / 0)
Don't you think the reorganization of our conception of the "cosmos" was far more radical than the concept of how and when animals including us became the types found today? Galileo might more properly be a candidate for the start of a new calendar (this year 2012 CE is the proper usage--for Common Era) However, Arab astronomers had the earth and planets orbiting the sun, rather than the layers of the "firmament" and then Heaven above the sky, before Galileo, and, like Arab mathematics, probably were the foundation of the concept Galileo proposed. The Islamic calendar might be more appropriate, then, but we return to your original objection.

by arachne646 on Wed Jan 11, 2012 at 06:06:54 PM EST
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(Laugh) (none / 0)
Or the Chinese calendar... or the Mayan one...

I admit I'm no expert on Chinese beliefs or knowledge, but I do know that they were aware of the Pythagorean Theorem long before Pythagoras.  I also think they may have been aware that the earth was a sphere long before Galileo.

My people (Native Americans) were well aware of astronomy and there is good evidence that even some of the more subtle cycles were well known to them (for example, in the layout of some of the pueblos).  As far as the earth being a sphere... I don't know if any group knew that or not (I don't think the Maya did... but again I haven't studied Ancient Mayan beliefs besides reading a couple of their stories).

There was an article in the news not that long ago about a proposal for a new calendar system that was pretty logical.  (I found it: http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/12/rational-calendar/ )

by ArchaeoBob on Wed Jan 11, 2012 at 08:40:29 PM EST
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Pick one, any one... (none / 0)
I agree that there are many reasons why there are other calendars that might be used.  I think the reason we use the one we do is simply that it could be adapted with the least disruption of all concerned.  It may reflect that the Christians have "won" the history "wars", but the reality is that trying to change everything to a new calendar--any calendar! is really going to be difficult.  Star Fleet managed...but even then, they have had to translate Star Dates to "the old calendar..."

One could probably argue that based on antiquity within the western world tradition, at least, the Jewish calendar has a much older claim...but a lunar calendar is going to be SUCH fun to adopt...

Pr Chris

by CalSailor on Thu Jan 26, 2012 at 08:41:25 PM EST
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Crazy For Creationism: Legislators In Ind. And N.H. Seek To Undermine Instruction About Evolution | 18 comments (18 topical, 0 hidden)

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There is new research on why people are averse to hearing or learning about the views of ideological opponents. Based on evaluation of five......
By Frederick Clarkson (374 comments)
Will the Air Force Do Anything To Rein In Its Dynamic Duo of Gay-Bashing, Misogynistic Bloggers?
"I always get nervous when I see female pastors/chaplains. Here is why everyone should as well: "First, women are not called to be pastors,......
By Chris Rodda (195 comments)
The Legacy of Big Oil
The media is ablaze with the upcoming publication of David Grann's book, Killers of the Flower Moon. The shocking non fiction account of the......
By wilkyjr (110 comments)
Gimme That Old Time Dominionism Denial
Over the years, I have written a great deal here and in other venues about the explicitly theocratic movement called dominionism -- which has......
By Frederick Clarkson (101 comments)
History Advisor to Members of Congress Completely Twists Jefferson's Words to Support Muslim Ban
Pseudo-historian David Barton, best known for his misquoting of our country's founders to promote the notion that America was founded as a Christian nation,......
By Chris Rodda (113 comments)
"Christian Fighter Pilot" Calls First Lesbian Air Force Academy Commandant a Liar
In a new post on his "Christian Fighter Pilot" blog titled "BGen Kristin Goodwin and the USAFA Honor Code," Air Force Lieutenant Colonel Jonathan......
By Chris Rodda (144 comments)
Catholic Right Leader Unapologetic about Call for 'Death to Liberal Professors' -- UPDATED
Today, Donald Trump appointed C-FAM Executive Vice President Lisa Correnti to the US Delegation To UN Commission On Status Of Women. (C-FAM is a......
By Frederick Clarkson (126 comments)
Controlling Information
     Yesterday I listened to Russ Limbaugh.  Rush advised listeners it would be best that they not listen to CNN,MSNBC, ABC, CBS and......
By wilkyjr (118 comments)
Is Bannon Fifth-Columning the Pope?
In December 2016 I wrote about how White House chief strategist Steve Bannon, who likes to flash his Catholic credentials when it comes to......
By Frank Cocozzelli (250 comments)
Ross Douthat's Hackery on the Seemingly Incongruous Alliance of Bannon & Burke
Conservative Catholic writer Ross Douthat has dissembled again. This time, in a February 15, 2017 New York Times op-ed titled The Trump Era's Catholic......
By Frank Cocozzelli (64 comments)
`So-Called Patriots' Attack The Rule Of Law
Every so often, right-wing commentator Pat Buchanan lurches out of the far-right fever swamp where he has resided for the past 50 years to......
By Rob Boston (161 comments)
Bad Faith from Focus on the Family
Here is one from the archives, Feb 12, 2011, that serves as a reminder of how deeply disingenuous people can be. Appeals to seek......
By Frederick Clarkson (176 comments)
The Legacy of George Wallace
"One need not accept any of those views to agree that they had appealed to real concerns of real people, not to mindless, unreasoning......
By wilkyjr (70 comments)
Betsy DeVos's Mudsill View of Public Education
My Talk to Action colleague Rachel Tabachnick has been doing yeoman's work in explaining Betsy DeVos's long-term strategy for decimating universal public education. If......
By Frank Cocozzelli (80 comments)
Prince and DeVos Families at Intersection of Radical Free Market Privatizers and Religious Right
This post from 2011 surfaces important information about President-Elect Trump's nominee for Secretary of Education, Betsy DeVos. -- FC Erik Prince, Brother of Betsy......
By Rachel Tabachnick (218 comments)

Respect for Others? or Political Correctness?
The term "political correctness" as used by Conservatives and Republicans has often puzzled me: what exactly do they mean by it? After reading Chip Berlin's piece here-- http://www.talk2action.org/story/2016/7/21/04356/9417 I thought about what he explained......
MTOLincoln (253 comments)
Fear
What I'm feeling now is fear.  I swear that it seems my nightmares are coming true with this new "president".  I'm also frustrated because so many people are not connecting all the dots! I've......
ArchaeoBob (107 comments)
"America - love it or LEAVE!"
I've been hearing that and similar sentiments fairly frequently in the last few days - far FAR more often than ever before.  Hearing about "consequences for burning the flag (actions) from Trump is chilling!......
ArchaeoBob (211 comments)
"Faked!" Meme
Keep your eyes and ears open for a possible move to try to discredit the people openly opposing Trump and the bigots, especially people who have experienced terrorism from the "Right"  (Christian Terrorism is......
ArchaeoBob (165 comments)
More aggressive proselytizing
My wife told me today of an experience she had this last week, where she was proselytized by a McDonald's employee while in the store. ......
ArchaeoBob (163 comments)
See if you recognize names on this list
This comes from the local newspaper, which was conservative before and took a hard right turn after it was sold. Hint: Sarah Palin's name is on it!  (It's also connected to Trump.) ......
ArchaeoBob (169 comments)
Unions: A Labor Day Discussion
This is a revision of an article which I posted on my personal board and also on Dailykos. I had an interesting discussion on a discussion board concerning Unions. I tried to piece it......
Xulon (156 comments)
Extremely obnoxious protesters at WitchsFest NYC: connected to NAR?
In July of this year, some extremely loud, obnoxious Christian-identified protesters showed up at WitchsFest, an annual Pagan street fair here in NYC.  Here's an account of the protest by Pagan writer Heather Greene......
Diane Vera (130 comments)
Capitalism and the Attack on the Imago Dei
I joined this site today, having been linked here by Crooksandliars' Blog Roundup. I thought I'd put up something I put up previously on my Wordpress blog and also at the DailyKos. As will......
Xulon (330 comments)
History of attitudes towards poverty and the churches.
Jesus is said to have stated that "The Poor will always be with you" and some Christians have used that to refuse to try to help the poor, because "they will always be with......
ArchaeoBob (148 comments)
Alternate economy medical treatment
Dogemperor wrote several times about the alternate economy structure that dominionists have built.  Well, it's actually made the news.  Pretty good article, although it doesn't get into how bad people could be (have been)......
ArchaeoBob (90 comments)
Evidence violence is more common than believed
Think I've been making things up about experiencing Christian Terrorism or exaggerating, or that it was an isolated incident?  I suggest you read this article (linked below in body), which is about our great......
ArchaeoBob (214 comments)

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