We Can Add New Teachings To The Bible, Says New Apostolic Reformation Leader Peter Wagner
Bruce Wilson printable version print page     Bookmark and Share
Tue May 15, 2012 at 07:53:58 AM EST
[NAR leaders, who claim to be able to work miracles via their iPhones, have ties to major U.S. politicians including Sarah Palin, Rick Perry, and Newt Gingrich and have led politicized prayer events attended by Senators Sam Brownback and Jim DeMint. To underscore the political nature of the NAR, Wagner Leadership Institute faculty member Julius Oyet claims to have helped conceive of Uganda's Anti Homosexuality Bill, and WLI teacher Mary Glazier, a longtime friend to Sarah Palin according to Charisma magazine, claims to have in 1995 hounded out of Alaska a women accused of witchcraft.]  

For any religious tradition with a heavily political bent, the ability to receive from God new teachings that have the force of scripture is powerful - for example, enemies can be targeted and demonized with ease. On February 3, 2008, C. Peter Wagner, perhaps the most significant leader in the movement he has named and played a key role in organizing, the New Apostolic Reformation, led a ceremony at the Everett, WA-based Sonrise Chapel near Seattle, for the commissioning of ICA apostle Dan Hammer as the chancellor of the newly-founded Wagner Leadership Institute Seattle. Prior to commissioning Hammer, Wagner declared that "the Holy Spirit still speaks to us today and we can hear from the Lord, and He gives us information, actually, that you can't find in any of the 66 books of the Bible--even though none of it contradicts the Bible."

One of the more benign examples of how this can work in practice can be seen in footage from the NAR's 2010 Convergence conference in Cedar Hills, TX, during which apostle Ed Silvoso--who convened the original 1999 meeting that led to the formation of what may be the movement's biggest apostolic network, the International Coalition of Apostles--released an "anointing for extraordinary miracles", so that movement members would be able to conduct miracles via their modern technological appliances, such as iPhones and cellphones.  

The main body in Wagner's movement that such divine revelation, which can allow for the introduction of new Christian scripture and practices, flows through is the elite Apostolic Council of Prophetic Elders. One of Wagner's 26-odd ACPE prophets is The Call founder Lou Engle, known for his rhetoric against gay marriage (Engle staged a May 2010 Uganda rally featuring key figures promoting Uganda's so-called "kill the gays" bill) and legalized abortion.

Engle, who has predicted that legalized abortion demands repayment in blood and will cause a second American civil war, rhetorically targeted late-term abortion doctor George Tiller shortly prior to Tiller's assassination.

In 2007, at a Kansas City The Call rally, Lou Engle declared his "Doctrine of the Shedding of Innocent Blood", that Engle elaborated in a written document [PDF of document] originally published on The Call's website, which stated,

"Surely blood requires blood in God's judgment. God so highly values humanity that He protects it with His severe judgment. A day of reckoning is set if man does not obey Him... Where there is shedding of innocent blood, there is no atonement for the land. There is a blood pollution problem on America's soil. The most "dangerous terrorist" is not Islam, but God. One of God's names is "the Avenger of Blood." Have you worshipped [sic] that God yet?"

Because of Engle's status as a prophet in ACPE, we can reasonably assume that Engle's teaching was considered within the NAR movement to have the force of Biblical scripture. Later, in a 2009 post, Engle compared late-term abortion doctor George Tiller to an Auschwitz death camp worker, writing,

"Tiller is being charged with 19 counts of illegal late-term abortions after he claimed ignorance of the Born Alive Infants Protection Act, a federal bill signed into law in 2002 that protects children born alive from infanticide by abortion doctors.

[...]

Why should an abortion doctor be found guilty for criminal activity and a governor who has done everything to cover and protect that crime be exalted?  Was it only the Auschwitz death camp workers who were guilty of killing the Jews or were the political leaders who sanctioned it guilty as well?  The answer is obvious to anyone who has a heart."

Little more than two months later, Dr. Tiller was gunned down in the lobby of his church, by antiabortion activist Scott Roeder.

In his Feb. 3, 2008 talk at Sonrise Chapel, during a question-and-answer period, Peter Wagner described how, although there is nothing in the Bible condemning abortion, the Holy Spirit tells Wagner's prophets that "abortion is murder":

Questioner, to C. Peter Wagner:  I'm interested in knowing--coming from an intellectiual background, could you give us a little background as to how, when that intellectual background clashed with faith? I don't know if I'm getting across...

Wagner: Oh boy. Well, see, that's a big question, see, and you're absolutely right. Not so much clashed with faith but clashed with power.

Questioner: Right.

C. Peter Wagner: The power of the Holy Spirit. See, I had to go through a huge paradigm shift.

Q: And I don't believe it should clash, but it seems that it does.

Wagner - And, you know where it clashes the most? Man, you know, that question you asked, I could talk a long time about that but, this will be the last question, OK? Not that I'm going to talk long, but then we'll move on.

OK. Do you know what the biggest clash was? My intellectual background taught me--it was in religion, you know. All my degrees are in religion. So my intellectual background told me that this [holds up Bible] was the word of God, and once this was revealed, God had revealed everything that he wanted to reveal. OK? And so, from then on, all we had to do to progress was to know more and more and more about this.

Then I started--then, it came to my attention that when God, when the Holy Spirit quit inspiring the written word, he kept revealing new things through what we call the Rhema Word. See? Honestly, this is a , this was a huge, huge thing for me as an intellectual to try to accept. See? That the Holy Spirit still speaks to us today and we can hear from the Lord, and He gives us information, actually, that you can't find in any of the 66 books of the Bible--even though none of it contradicts the Bible. If the Holy Spirit ever says anything that contradicts the Bible, then it's false, see?

But there's a lot of truth that the Holy Spirit gives us that the Bible doesn't even touch, doesn't even bring up, see? And so, I mean, like I say... You know, a big one that the Bible doesn't even touch is abortion. Nothing in the Bible that condemns abortion. But the Holy Spirit has revealed to us that abortion is murder. See?

Now, that's not in the Bible. There are principles in the Bible that you can put together and make a case for it, but you look up the word 'abortion' in your Concordance--it's not there. See? And, so, all I'm saying is that's a good, live example of something that we have received from the Holy Spirit that is now legitimate.. But the Holy Spirit has revealed to us that abortion is murder. See? And, so, all I'm saying is that's a good, live example of something that we have received from the Holy Spirit that is now legitimate. Does that contradict the Bible? Not at all. As a matter of fact, the Bible reinforces it.

Although Wagner's teaching breaks with centuries of established Christian teaching, the apostles and prophets of his NAR nonetheless have significant ties to national-level American politicians, such as Sarah Palin, Rick Perry, and Newt Gingrich, and they have prayed with, and appeared in public with, President Barack Obama and First Lady Michele Obama. This May 2012, Christianity Today featured one of the top female leaders of the NAR on the front cover of the magazine's print issue.

[video, below: beginning roughly at 55:08, top New Apostolic Reformation theorist C. Peter Wagner, who has served as a top "convening apostle" in the NAR movement, describes how prophets in his movement can receive new revelation, from God, that can augment Biblical scripture.]




Display:
The concept of adding new teachings is fairly convenient for the NAR, and does indeed allow them to demonize their critics with ease.

by khughes1963 on Tue May 15, 2012 at 12:51:13 PM EST
has been spot-on, spiritually since the Holy Spirit seems to be divulging the very information that NAR leadership has espoused as truth to their congregations, and they've been correct all this time.

Just imagine how embarrassed Rev. Pastor Apostle Wagner would be now if the Holy Spirit had disagreed with any of their tenets?



by trog69 on Thu May 17, 2012 at 06:25:00 AM EST
Parent
Of course, C. Wagner is saying that he's been listening to the Holy Spirit all this time, thus their tenets of faith. I liked my previous stance on this; too bad it's not relevant. hehehe.

by trog69 on Thu May 17, 2012 at 06:27:59 AM EST
Parent
Watch The Conjuring 2 Online
Watch Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 2 Out of the Shadows Online
Watch Neighbors 2 Sorority Rising Online
Watch The Legend of Tarzan Online
Watch Me Before You Online
Watch War Dogs Online
Watch The Light Between Oceans Online
Watch Central Intelligence Online
Watch War Dogs Online
Watch Bad Moms Online
Watch Sausage Party Online
Watch Kubo and the Two Strings Online
Watch Ghostbusters Online
Watch Warcraft Online
Watch The Purge 3 Election Year Online
Watch Mechanic 2 Resurrection Online
Watch Neighbors 2 Sorority Rising Online
Watch Florence Foster Jenkins Online
Watch Suicide Squad Online
Watch Finding Dory Online
Watch Snowden Online
Watch Snowden Online
Watch Me Before You Online
Watch Jason Bourne 5 Online
Watch Bad Moms Online
Watch Sausage Party Online
Watch Now You See Me 2 Online
Watch Storks Online
Watch Mechanic 2 Resurrection Online
Watch The Light Between Oceans Online
Watch Sausage Party Online
Watch The Light Between Oceans Online
Watch Finding Dory Online
Watch Star Trek Beyond Online
Watch War Dogs Online
Watch Warcraft Online
Watch Alice Through the Looking Glass Online
Watch The BFG Online
Watch Ice Age 5 Collision Course Online
Watch Petes Dragon Online
Watch X-Men 9 Apocalypse Online
Watch Ghostbusters Online
Watch Petes Dragon Online
Watch Ben Hur Online
Watch Money Monster Online
Watch The Magnificent Seven Online
Watch Ben Hur Online
Watch The Magnificent Seven Online
Watch Jason Bourne 5 Online
Watch Nerve Online
Watch Spectral Online
Watch Snowden Online
Watch Captain America Civil War Online
Watch X-Men 9 Apocalypse Online
Watch Free State of Jones Online
Watch Alice Through the Looking Glass Online
Watch Ice Age 5 Collision Course Online
Watch Now You See Me 2 Online
Watch Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 2 Out of the Shadows Online
Watch The Angry Birds Movie Online
Watch The Nice Guys Online
Watch Nerve Online
Watch Suicide Squad Online
Watch Storks Online
Watch The Purge 3 Election Year Online
Watch Spectral Online
Watch Ice Age 5 Collision Course Online
Watch Kubo and the Two Strings Online
Watch Mechanic 2 Resurrection Online
Watch Bad Moms Online
Watch Florence Foster Jenkins Online
Watch Star Trek Beyond Online
Watch Suicide Squad Online
Watch Kubo and the Two Strings Online
Watch Petes Dragon Online
Watch Jason Bourne 5 Online
Watch The Secret Life of Pets Online
Watch The Nice Guys Online
Watch The Legend of Tarzan Online
Watch Mike and Dave Need Wedding Dates Online
Watch Mike and Dave Need Wedding Dates Online
Watch Independence Day 2 Resurgence Online
Watch Storks Online
Watch The Magnificent Seven Online
Watch Spectral Online
Watch Free State of Jones Online
Watch Independence Day 2 Resurgence Online
Watch The Conjuring 2 Online
Watch Captain America Civil War Online
Watch Central Intelligence Online
Watch The BFG Online
Watch Florence Foster Jenkins Online
Watch The Angry Birds Movie Online
Watch The Secret Life of Pets Online
Watch Nerve Online
Watch Star Trek Beyond Online
Watch Ben Hur Online
Watch Money Monster Online


by blomblom on Fri Jul 08, 2016 at 09:02:35 AM EST
Parent




When I was in the Assemblies, one of the big issues they had with certain groups was "adding to the Bible"... they quoted the Revelation of St. John and it's curse on anyone who "adds to the words" - as if it meant the entire Bible and used it against anyone who, for instance, accepted the Apocrypha or had other books besides the Bible (as in the Mormons).

Now Wagner says this.  The opposite of what was preached 30 years ago.

by ArchaeoBob on Tue May 15, 2012 at 08:25:53 PM EST


...if 'revelation' from the 'Holy Spirit' adds to the Bible but doesn't contradict it, and the Bible reinforces that 'revelation', how would one know that if the Bible doesn't mention the subject in the first place?  

by Browsercat on Tue May 15, 2012 at 09:56:16 AM EST
I haven't run across C. Peter Wagner elaborating any further on the subject, so I can't answer this.

by Bruce Wilson on Tue May 15, 2012 at 11:38:24 AM EST
Parent

What the interpreter chooses to use from the Bible to reinforce his or her "revelation from the Holy Spirit" is of their own choosing, and may be something related to, say, compensation for accidentally killing a pregnant servant compared to a woman servant who isn't pregnant, with uncleanness plus compensation vs. compensation alone, and "therefore" it's reinforcing the "prophecy" that abortion is murder. That is only a non-Biblical example, but you get the idea. When one is in charge of interpreting the Bible (even literal readings need explanation/interpretation), whether it agrees with what you say now, what you say later, is up to you. Any inconvenient records are the work of demons interfering with the internet, recording, or printing processes.

by arachne646 on Wed May 16, 2012 at 11:08:56 AM EST
Parent
how the biblical texts were cobbled together by committee votes over hundreds of years, with gospels flying in and out of the accepted finished product, one could say that the Holy Spirit could have done a better job of managing it all.  

by BGBlade on Wed May 16, 2012 at 04:29:16 PM EST
Parent



Normally at this point I would make some sort of tech joke about the Iphone and flash, but this is just silly. Also seeing as we can add to the bible, can we expect to hear Jesus sound off on all the political talking points?

by Hirador on Wed May 16, 2012 at 07:51:15 PM EST

What about the 100,000 Iraqis, the innocents in Afghanistan? etc  these people are always fuming about abortion but have no problem with participating in the american empire's bloodletting - Hypocrites - a NAR influenced church in my area has numerous recent conflict vets and they're lifted up as heroes that did "God's" work...

And Engle's coming "civil war" - he and his followers will be the first (if not the instigators) to join the right wing side of that conflict to fulfill their christian nationalist bloodlust revenge against everyone they consider 'not-real-americans'  

by AkronAndy on Sat May 19, 2012 at 08:01:46 AM EST

From my perspective, to harp on abortion but neglect U.S. involvement in unjust wars, support for regimes with terrible human rights records, and so on, is inconsistent and hypocritical.

by Bruce Wilson on Sat May 19, 2012 at 06:03:33 PM EST
Parent



WWW Talk To Action


Cognitive Dissonance & Dominionism Denial
There is new research on why people are averse to hearing or learning about the views of ideological opponents. Based on evaluation of five......
By Frederick Clarkson (374 comments)
Will the Air Force Do Anything To Rein In Its Dynamic Duo of Gay-Bashing, Misogynistic Bloggers?
"I always get nervous when I see female pastors/chaplains. Here is why everyone should as well: "First, women are not called to be pastors,......
By Chris Rodda (195 comments)
The Legacy of Big Oil
The media is ablaze with the upcoming publication of David Grann's book, Killers of the Flower Moon. The shocking non fiction account of the......
By wilkyjr (110 comments)
Gimme That Old Time Dominionism Denial
Over the years, I have written a great deal here and in other venues about the explicitly theocratic movement called dominionism -- which has......
By Frederick Clarkson (101 comments)
History Advisor to Members of Congress Completely Twists Jefferson's Words to Support Muslim Ban
Pseudo-historian David Barton, best known for his misquoting of our country's founders to promote the notion that America was founded as a Christian nation,......
By Chris Rodda (113 comments)
"Christian Fighter Pilot" Calls First Lesbian Air Force Academy Commandant a Liar
In a new post on his "Christian Fighter Pilot" blog titled "BGen Kristin Goodwin and the USAFA Honor Code," Air Force Lieutenant Colonel Jonathan......
By Chris Rodda (144 comments)
Catholic Right Leader Unapologetic about Call for 'Death to Liberal Professors' -- UPDATED
Today, Donald Trump appointed C-FAM Executive Vice President Lisa Correnti to the US Delegation To UN Commission On Status Of Women. (C-FAM is a......
By Frederick Clarkson (126 comments)
Controlling Information
     Yesterday I listened to Russ Limbaugh.  Rush advised listeners it would be best that they not listen to CNN,MSNBC, ABC, CBS and......
By wilkyjr (118 comments)
Is Bannon Fifth-Columning the Pope?
In December 2016 I wrote about how White House chief strategist Steve Bannon, who likes to flash his Catholic credentials when it comes to......
By Frank Cocozzelli (250 comments)
Ross Douthat's Hackery on the Seemingly Incongruous Alliance of Bannon & Burke
Conservative Catholic writer Ross Douthat has dissembled again. This time, in a February 15, 2017 New York Times op-ed titled The Trump Era's Catholic......
By Frank Cocozzelli (64 comments)
`So-Called Patriots' Attack The Rule Of Law
Every so often, right-wing commentator Pat Buchanan lurches out of the far-right fever swamp where he has resided for the past 50 years to......
By Rob Boston (161 comments)
Bad Faith from Focus on the Family
Here is one from the archives, Feb 12, 2011, that serves as a reminder of how deeply disingenuous people can be. Appeals to seek......
By Frederick Clarkson (176 comments)
The Legacy of George Wallace
"One need not accept any of those views to agree that they had appealed to real concerns of real people, not to mindless, unreasoning......
By wilkyjr (70 comments)
Betsy DeVos's Mudsill View of Public Education
My Talk to Action colleague Rachel Tabachnick has been doing yeoman's work in explaining Betsy DeVos's long-term strategy for decimating universal public education. If......
By Frank Cocozzelli (80 comments)
Prince and DeVos Families at Intersection of Radical Free Market Privatizers and Religious Right
This post from 2011 surfaces important information about President-Elect Trump's nominee for Secretary of Education, Betsy DeVos. -- FC Erik Prince, Brother of Betsy......
By Rachel Tabachnick (218 comments)

Respect for Others? or Political Correctness?
The term "political correctness" as used by Conservatives and Republicans has often puzzled me: what exactly do they mean by it? After reading Chip Berlin's piece here-- http://www.talk2action.org/story/2016/7/21/04356/9417 I thought about what he explained......
MTOLincoln (253 comments)
Fear
What I'm feeling now is fear.  I swear that it seems my nightmares are coming true with this new "president".  I'm also frustrated because so many people are not connecting all the dots! I've......
ArchaeoBob (107 comments)
"America - love it or LEAVE!"
I've been hearing that and similar sentiments fairly frequently in the last few days - far FAR more often than ever before.  Hearing about "consequences for burning the flag (actions) from Trump is chilling!......
ArchaeoBob (211 comments)
"Faked!" Meme
Keep your eyes and ears open for a possible move to try to discredit the people openly opposing Trump and the bigots, especially people who have experienced terrorism from the "Right"  (Christian Terrorism is......
ArchaeoBob (165 comments)
More aggressive proselytizing
My wife told me today of an experience she had this last week, where she was proselytized by a McDonald's employee while in the store. ......
ArchaeoBob (163 comments)
See if you recognize names on this list
This comes from the local newspaper, which was conservative before and took a hard right turn after it was sold. Hint: Sarah Palin's name is on it!  (It's also connected to Trump.) ......
ArchaeoBob (169 comments)
Unions: A Labor Day Discussion
This is a revision of an article which I posted on my personal board and also on Dailykos. I had an interesting discussion on a discussion board concerning Unions. I tried to piece it......
Xulon (156 comments)
Extremely obnoxious protesters at WitchsFest NYC: connected to NAR?
In July of this year, some extremely loud, obnoxious Christian-identified protesters showed up at WitchsFest, an annual Pagan street fair here in NYC.  Here's an account of the protest by Pagan writer Heather Greene......
Diane Vera (130 comments)
Capitalism and the Attack on the Imago Dei
I joined this site today, having been linked here by Crooksandliars' Blog Roundup. I thought I'd put up something I put up previously on my Wordpress blog and also at the DailyKos. As will......
Xulon (329 comments)
History of attitudes towards poverty and the churches.
Jesus is said to have stated that "The Poor will always be with you" and some Christians have used that to refuse to try to help the poor, because "they will always be with......
ArchaeoBob (148 comments)
Alternate economy medical treatment
Dogemperor wrote several times about the alternate economy structure that dominionists have built.  Well, it's actually made the news.  Pretty good article, although it doesn't get into how bad people could be (have been)......
ArchaeoBob (90 comments)
Evidence violence is more common than believed
Think I've been making things up about experiencing Christian Terrorism or exaggerating, or that it was an isolated incident?  I suggest you read this article (linked below in body), which is about our great......
ArchaeoBob (214 comments)

More Diaries...




All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective companies. Comments, posts, stories, and all other content are owned by the authors. Everything else © 2005 Talk to Action, LLC.