We Have A Better Story To Tell
Frederick Clarkson printable version print page     Bookmark and Share
Sun Mar 31, 2013 at 08:56:18 PM EST
Author Nathan Lean has an important essay at Salon.com about the vulgar anti-Muslim words and views of  "New Atheist" figures Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris.  These prominent figures have, Lean reports, drifted off into views that are variously indistinguishable from those of the Christian Right, and even of contemporary neo-Nazis.  

Lean points out for example, that evolutionary biologist and Oxford Don Richard Dawkins has in his anti-Muslim fervor, reveled in ignorance and embraced European far-right leaders. This is not to say, of course, that those who agree with Dawkins and Harris (or anyone else) about some things, necessarily agree with them about all things, let alone these things.  

Lean's is a cautionary tale of what can go horribly wrong, off the deep end of anti-religionism generally and Islamophobia in particular.  Such things are bad enough, but they also have running implications for those of us whose values include religious pluralism and separation of church and state, and understanding the Religious Right and what to do about it.

Here are a few snippets from Lean's article.

Dawkins, in a recent rant on Twitter, admitted that he had not ever read the Quran, but was sufficiently expert in the topic to denounce Islam as the main culprit of all the world's evil: "Haven't read Koran so couldn't quote chapter and verse like I can for Bible. But [I] often say Islam [is the] greatest force for evil today."

Dawkins spins wild conspiracy theories claiming that ordinary terms like "communities" and "multiculturalism" are actually ominous code words for "Muslims" and "Islam," respectively. The English Defence League, a soccer hooligan street gang that has a history of threatening Muslims with violence and assaulting police officers, has made identical claims, as have leaders of Stop the Islamization of Europe (SIOE), a ragtag coterie of neo-Nazis whose hate franchise spans two continents:  Stop the Islamization of America (SIOA), its American counterpart, is led by bloggers Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer.  In July of 2011, Dawkins re-published a lengthy diatribe by former SIOE leader Stephen Gash on his website. Gash, too, has an aversion for scholarly decorum. He once unleashed a public temper tantrum during a debate on Islam at the esteemed Cambridge University Union Society, shouting and storming out of the auditorium when the invited speaker, a Muslim, rebutted his ideas before the audience.

Dawkins is also on record praising the far-right Dutch politician Geert Wilders, a man who says that he "hates Islam" and that Muslims who desire to remain in the Netherlands should "rip out half of the Koran" (Later, he blabbed that the Muslim holy book should be banned entirely). The peroxide-blonde leader of the Party of Freedom, who faced trial in 2009 for hate speech, produced an amateurish flick called "Fitna" the year before. The 17-minute film was chockablock with racist images such as Muhammad's head attached to a ticking time bomb and juxtapositions of Muslims and Nazis.  For Dawkins, it was pure bliss. "On the strength of `Fitna' alone, I salute you as a man of courage who has the balls to stand up to a monstrous enemy," he wrote.

Lean's article for me, underscores the problem of a false narrative that continues to pervade our national discourse: The notion that being non-religious or secular is inherently progressive.  This narrative continues in large part because the religious and political Right has been so heavily invested in it.

The narrative has been so powerful and pervasive that it can be hard to remember that the Left is not now, nor has it ever been entirely non-religious and the Right has certainly never been entirely religious. Never. There has always been a Religious Left, although like any other sector it has had its ups and downs. And there have always been non-religious conservatives.  Always.

But this narrative continues to come up in surprising ways. A few years ago this came up on a  on a panel discussion at Netroots Nation to which I had been invited to participate.)  The panel provoked a fair amount of discussion before and after the event.)   I said "that being non-religious, or secular, is not in itself progressive any more than being religious is necessarily progressive. There are a great many non-religious conservatives -- and anyone who has ever encountered the followers of Ayn Rand knows exactly what I am talking about.  What's more, the political descendents of the Greek philosopher Plato, many of whom are non-religious, view religion as "the noble lie" to be used as a tool of social control by economic and political elites.  Some leaders of today's neoconservative movement are old school Platonists in exactly this way, and this is an important ingredient in their alliance with the Religious Right."

This narrative of the Right has proved to be durable, but it is one we need to continue to engage and ultimately replace.  We have a better story to tell.




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Really... that article in salon is exaggerated and dishonest in so many respects. Truly disappointed you could take it seriously.
Giving Islam a free pass while holding the feet of the religious christian right to the fire is not a logical position for this web site to hold.

by PastorJennifer on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 05:01:55 AM EST
This site is not about religion per se. Our site topic is the Religious Right and what to do about it.  A more detailed version of what we are and are not was stated in the terms of service when you signed up for the site, and in the site guidelines which are unchanged since the site was founded in 2005.   We also support religious pluralism and mutual respect. Our contributors have over time, included both religious and non-religious people, Christian and non-Christian.  Pie fights about theology, especially theism vs atheism are off topic here and are well covered elsewhere.

That said, we are not giving Islam a "free pass."  Islam can easily come up in discussions of the World Congress of Families for example, where conservative Muslims coalesce with conservative Catholic, evangelical and Mormon elements to fight against the many things they don't like in the UN system.  But we mostly focus on the U.S., so Islam does not come up as much as it would if we were more internationally oriented.

But because of this, Islam is more likely to come up here in the context of American far Christian right and neo-Nazi conspiracy theories which Dawkins unfortunately echoes, as is detailed in the Salon article.  

These things said, hatemongering is unacceptable no matter who does it. That ought to be an idea that any person of good will can support. But my purpose here was not so much to highlight yet another example of far right conspiracy theory -- but for the reasons stated in my post.  

That none of those who have shown up defend Dawkins have actually addressed any of my points or my reasons for raising this in the first place is revealing, and is noted.

by Frederick Clarkson on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 10:25:27 AM EST
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Islam has a Religious Right problem as much as America does.

I keep telling people time and time and time again, the problem is fundamentalism and not individual religions (or even religion itself).  I'd also add that there are fundamentalist atheists... I've had the misfortune to have problems with them too.

The most hell my wife and I have gone through is from fundamentalist (extreme conservative - they seem to go hand in hand) "Christianity", but that doesn't mean by a long shot that "Christianity" is the sole culprit.  From what I've read of Dawkins and the others, I suspect that they've been badly burned by fundamentalists at some point in their life and never recovered.

(I rather like the moderate atheists I'm around a lot... very tolerant bunch as a rule!)


by ArchaeoBob on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 10:42:31 AM EST
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AB thanks for comment. Fundamentalists of all stripes are problematic because their ears are closed to the voices of reason

by PastorJennifer on Wed Apr 03, 2013 at 12:08:23 PM EST
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a person who goes to our UU church and attends the pagan circle had her house shot up last week because she was a "F-ing Witch" (screamed at her house, and I think just before shots started flying).  She'd been experiencing problems for the last few weeks and the evidence is all because she's pagan (and pagans are hated almost as much as atheists and gays by the "Good Christians" in this area).  It happened in New Port Richey.

At least three bullets went through... one right through where she usually sits.  I may be way off base, but from the size of the bullet holes, I suspect it wasn't something small shot at her either... something with plenty of power and a sizeable slug.  Definitely NOT a .22, compared to .22 bullet-holes I've seen in the past.

It's one thing to discuss this from an academic point of view, but it's another to loose one's workshop (torched), pets murdered, or house shot up.  There is a dire problem in this country - religious right extremism, and it's hurting people - even murdering people.  We need to find ways to deal with THAT.

The words of Dawkins and others who have talked like him don't help.  He goes home to his nice secure house, while those of us who live among the "Good Christians" who are enraged by his words catch the fallout.  His words also don't help the good Muslims, of whom there are many - or the REAL Christians, who also get tarred with the same brush (especially when "Christian" terrorists strike again).  I have friends and well-liked colleagues from the Islamic world, and I don't want to go to their funerals.  They're good people.  I don't want to loose any of my rare REAL Christian friends, or atheist friends, or LGBT friends, or pagan friends, or you name the group, because a big-name jackass won't differentiate between the right-wing nutcases as opposed to the rest - or encourages hate-based violence against them.

That goes double when people defend the Religious Right people (who are the ones in power in this country) who spew their trash - like the people Frederick mentioned.  There is no justification whatsoever for what they say and do, and they need to be called on the wrong they say - because it encourages the sort of things my wife and I have been put through, or our friends, or others known to this group.  The violence is getting noticeably worse, and the brakes need to be applied.

by ArchaeoBob on Wed Apr 03, 2013 at 06:50:57 PM EST
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In fact I have addressed one of the points in Salon article which is factually incorrect... see above. This is but one piece of misinformation that I have had time to research.

Again I urge others to check the Coyne article which addresses other more major points... example: Lean's assertion that Dawkins is unqualified to comment on Islam because he has not read the Quran.
 A critique of the legal and political practices of countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia hardly requires a reading of the Quran to render judgment upon the innate unfairness and inhumanity of islamic law as practiced in these countries


by PastorJennifer on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 01:44:28 PM EST
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also uses a series of strawman arguments.  But look, this is not about Coyne.

One thing, but not the only thing, that  Lean has reported that is of interest here, is that Dawkins was proud of the fact that he had not read the Qu'ran.  To me, this fact taken alone is not as interesting or as significant as how his proud ignorance may play into his general views.

Islam is, like other great religions, highly varied.   One does not have to agree with how various states apply their version of Islamic law to recognize that Dawkins'  quoted views in the Salon article are Islamophobic and based in rightwing conspiracy theory.  There are of course, a great many Muslims who do not support governments who abuse their people to sustain their own power and privilege.  There is, for example, a Muslim led popular revolution against the Arab Islamic nationalist government of Sudan. Last year I wrote:  

"leaders of what would become the Sudan Revolutionary Front, a military and political alliance of groups persecuted by the Khartoum regime, issued a declaration of independence. It was at once a call to arms and a visionary statement that closely echoes America's founding documents regarding the role of religion in public life and the rights of individual conscience. Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, and their fellow founders would undoubtedly be very pleased. They also might, like many contemporary Americans, be surprised to learn that the John Hancocks of the Political Declaration of the Sudan Revolutionary Front are also Muslims."

Dawkins is an obviously literate man, capable of making reasonable and reasoned distinctions and avoiding making unfair and unsupportable generalizations about people.  If only he would do so!   That he sustains a pattern of not doing so, and that his views have much in common with racist far right factions in Europe (not to mention elements of the Christian Right in the U.S.), is concerning.   Also concerning is that some people are looking away as hard and fast as they can.

by Frederick Clarkson on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 02:41:44 PM EST
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Coming as I do from England, I can assure you that the racist buffonery of far right wing groups like EDL and BNP bears no resemblence to the criticisms made by Dawkins re fundamentalist Islam.
You are probably unaware of the extreme views that have been expressed by some islamic leaders in the UK. If Mr Dawkins voices his opposition to their illiberal and oppressive attitudes towards women and their murderous views about gays then so much the better. The gap between new atheists and the christian right couldn't be wider.


by PastorJennifer on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 07:47:05 PM EST
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to the original Salon report which I quoted from in my original post.  So far, the reporting on Dawkins's disturbing views stands, unrefuted.

Meanwhile, readers may also appreciate another Salon piece that coincidentally appeared today. This one is written by Chris Stedman, a young gay atheist, who is also a Humanist Chaplain at Harvard, who has a different approach.  In his article, Stedman decrys efforts by American Christian Rightists Pam Geller and Robert Spenser to pit the American LGTB community and the Muslim community against one another and welcomes efforts by Muslims who support LGTB inclusion.  

by Frederick Clarkson on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 08:56:43 PM EST
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What on earth do not nut jobs like Pam Geller and Robert Spenser have to do with the interests of LGBT people, new atheists, and secular humanists..... absolutely NOTHING!

by PastorJennifer on Wed Apr 03, 2013 at 12:22:08 PM EST
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Where did Dawkins say he was proud of not reading the Quran? ... citation please...  I am interested. It may be true, I don't know. But as I have already posted, it doesn't require a reading of islamic scriptures to make an intelligent and informed critique of oppressive islamist practices in the social, political and judicial spheres.
And please do not refer to the Salon article as your source of reference as is it is demonstrably dishonest and misleading  (and, if I may say so, demagogic and hyperbolic). .... that kind of writing is as repulsive when it drips off the pen of a post modernist liberal as when it issues forth from the ball-point of a co-opting neo-con.


by PastorJennifer on Wed Apr 03, 2013 at 10:07:26 AM EST
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Its time for you to stop cluttering this web site with diversions and NA manifestos. I wrote a piece about a particular concern. I have seen nothing that in any way alters my concern about the far right drift of professor Dawkins. I would be glad to hear that the Salon piece is wrong, but so far, neither you or anyone else to my knowledge, has laid a glove on it.

The way things work here is that if you have something to say about the post, please do. Try to to take the topic off the rails, as you have. I am deleting some of the massive amount of off topic material.

If you are interested in sources, you can read the Salon piece, which you clearly have not. And do your own Googling.  Which is to say, if you care to do your own homework please do.  If you come up with something new of direct relevance to what I wrote,I'd love to hear about it.

by Frederick Clarkson on Wed Apr 03, 2013 at 03:01:57 PM EST
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This is the first opinion piece on this site in which I vehemently disagree. Rather than go through each insult to respond, I'll let Prof. Coyne explain it: http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2013/03/31/nasty-atheist- bashing-in-salon/

by trog69 on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 02:23:40 AM EST
If you read the article, I think you'll see that your professor Coyne does not really address any of the author's points, although he does take on Lean's unfortunately excessive invective.  

But I might add, Coyne's response to Lean has little relevance to my post.  

But just to draw out one useful lesson from Coyne's diversionary arguments, let's just point out that to criticize Dawkins for bigotry and hate mongering is not "atheist bashing" any more than criticizing say, Rick Warren, is "Christian bashing."  Lean does generalize a bit about the New Atheists, who are well known as a small group of authors. But while they have many readers and are much discussed, they do not represent all atheists, many of whom disagree with these authors on any number of things, as is true of any group of authors in any field -- so to criticize the bigotry of a few is not to smear all. A point I made up top in my post.

While I will be the first to say that there is often a gray area between fair and unfair criticism and I try to be careful in my own writing to stay on the side of fair, it is also true that see-no-evil followers of public figures like Dawkins or Warren tend to pretend that well targeted criticism of the ideas and public behavior of such individuals is somehow an attack on their group.  Its a sleazy form of argument and the intellectual equivalent of covering one's ears and singing "La La La La La La" to one's favorite tune.  

by Frederick Clarkson on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 03:48:49 AM EST
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I think the nuance that you advocate is absolutely necessary, and too often neglected by partisans on all sides. Another example would be the way that any criticism of Israeli government policy is immediately labeled "anti-Semitic." It diverts from discussion of the real issues at hand into a back-and-forth exercise in name-calling. Even avid advocates of a position should be able to acknowledge complexity and ambiguity among their opponents, but such careful thinking seems to be rather rare these days.

by MLouise on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 08:23:43 AM EST
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I guess I shouldn't be as surprised as I am.

by trog69 on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 07:34:02 PM EST
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Much of the Coyne argument is relevant and calls out the Salon article for its shortcomings and lack of balance.. . Please read it and judge wherein the truth lies. Mr Clarkson appears to have tripped into the land of the trolls with his dismissive and unpleasant response to his critics.

by PastorJennifer on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 05:19:31 AM EST
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against me, "PastorJennifer" are noted, and are not much of a response to what I actually wrote.

However, yours and others knee-jerk responses provide excellent case examples of the point of both my post and my comment.  Thank you for inadvertently thoughtful contribution.

by Frederick Clarkson on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 09:20:29 AM EST
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I hardly think my comment about the appropriateness, or lack thereof, of your tra la la la, fingers in ears characterization of those who disagree with you constitutes an ad hominem attack Mr Clarkson.

A little fact checking of the claims made in the Salon article reveals several mischaracterization, none of which I hold you accountable for. I do however hold you accountable for failing to verify the  accuracy of the sources you are recommending to your readers.

by PastorJennifer on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 12:37:24 PM EST
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Yours is an attack on me rather than an effort to address the substance of anything I have said. Hence an ad hominem attack.

Not that this is the forum for it, but you present zero facts to rebut the Salon article, which Coyne also fails to do. At least as far as the Islamophobia and far right conspiracism goes.  Both of you use diversionary tactics to change the subject.

My comment to which you now specifically object, also does not address those who disagree with me, but rather is a characterization of the way some people choose to respond to criticisms of those they feel the need to defend.  A point which I think is not only utterly fair, but a rather lighthearted way of approaching the matter.

by Frederick Clarkson on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 01:01:51 PM EST
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I can only say in response that your writing my name in scare quotes is not funny but offensive
but it is a squandering of precious time to remark upon your sense of "humor".

Try this for size instead....

Salon Article author Lean writes:

Dawkins' quest to "liberate" Muslim women and smack them with a big ol' heaping dose of George W. Bush freedom caused him to go berzerk over news that a University College of London debate, hosted by an Islamic group, offered a separate seating option for conservative, practicing Muslims. Without researching the facts, Dawkins assumed that gendered seating was compulsory, not voluntary...

...Perhaps your literary style has been inspired by Mr Lean? ;-)

In response to Mr Lean:

The segregated seating was COMPULSORY. The IERA (Islamic Education and Research Academy) who organized the debate stated in their pre-event publicity that "As for seating, it is according to when the ticket was booked and gender."

Furthermore attendee Taylor Simpson reports:

 "At the entrance to the UCL building audience members were separated into male and female only queues by the organisers' security staff."

"The policy of segregation was strictly enforced inside the building. Male attendees were refused entry via the women's door to the lecture theatre. When asked if the event was segregated, one of the security staff said: "It's slightly segregated." Dr Aisha Rahman said she was an organiser and that the room had been booked on behalf of UCL Chemistry. She said the segregation had been agreed with the University and suggested more than once that the men should be refused entry.
Several attendees approached UCL's security personnel to alert them to the situation, but found that the staff were unwilling to intervene, and were instructed to comply with the organisers' policy of segregation."

"After more discussion, three male attendees were told they would be permitted to sit in the women's section, but were directed to an isolated space on the side of the lecture theatre, away from everyone else."

"One of the students, Christopher Roche, said: "It was clear that the segregation was still in effect as when I sat in the same aisle as female attendees I was immediately instructed by security to exit the theatre. I was taken to a small room with IERA (Islamic Education and Research Academy) security staff and an organiser named Mohammad who told me that the policy was actually given to IERA by UCL."

"Shocked, I said that I would like to return to my seat but was told that security would now remove me from the premises for refusing to comply with the gender segregation."

Another attendee Dana Sondergaard reported:

"Tonight I attended a debate a UCL on Islam and Atheism. After having been told the event would NOT be gender segregated, we arrived and were told that women were to sit in the back of the auditorium, while men and [heterosexual] couples could file into the front. After watching 3 people be kicked out of the auditorium for not following this seating plan, Dr. Krauss bravely defended his beliefs of gender equality and informed event staff that he would not participate unless they removed the segregated seating. Needless to say, the staff got their shit together pretty quickly and the event (thankfully) continued. Props to Dr. Krauss for standing up for his beliefs, especially in such a biased environment!"

UCL, a publicly funded university,  is currently reviewing how the situation of segregated seating arose on its premises as it is contrary to its policies.


by PastorJennifer on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 01:27:00 PM EST
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addresses the points I raised about Islamophobia and rightwing conspiracy theory as propounded by Dawkins and others; and more importantly for my purposes, about the nature of certain aspects of public discourse and how these in turn affect the topic of this site, our discussion of the Religious Right and what to do about it.    

As for my putting your screen name in quotes, it was to emphasize that its just a screen name since that might not be clear to all.  But your taking offense at putting a screen name in quotes, or take it as if quotes necessarily imply "scary" -- is just odd.

The diversions just keep on coming.

by Frederick Clarkson on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 01:38:24 PM EST
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I believe my example showing the salon article to be erroneous demonstrates that your allegations rest on dubious foundations.
The burden of proof remains with you...

by PastorJennifer on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 07:01:24 PM EST
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by Frederick Clarkson on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 07:04:22 PM EST
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If anyone has had the chance to see the Dawkins documentary, I would highly recommend watching it.  His documentary gives no quarter to those who hold faith-based beliefs.  There is one statement where he says that churches 'are places that are out to take peoples' money.'  

The entire documentary is a diatribe against all of the major religions.  

by LupusGreywalker on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 10:44:20 AM EST

mainly because I'm willing to bet that he doesn't even remotely paint all churches like that.

by trog69 on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 07:30:59 PM EST
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you really shouldn't be at all surprised.

by Frederick Clarkson on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 08:34:45 PM EST
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in a roundabout way Mr. Dawkins casts all churches in basically the same negative light.  He has few kind words to say about spirituality or religion in general other than both of them being "alluring".

On another note, the use of vitriolic rhetoric and sweeping generalizations has become all too commonplace these days.  The Right has been notorious in using this tactic now the Left seems to be adopting the same protocol as well.  It is in that regard that comments from noted left-leaning thinkers like Dawkins should bring cause for concern.  

If demonization of the opposing side is to bec