Donate to or support
Talk to Action








The Indian River Incident : What You Can Do

link > The "Stop the ACLU Coalition" Shaming Project
How you can help stop "Stop The ACLU" just by sending a few emails



 'Left Behind' video game imageThe Shaming Project

does the violence of "Left Behind: Eternal Forces" bother you ? If so, what can you do ? Well, to begin with you can email Jonathan Hutson's stories to people you know. That will help to bring more public scrutiny of the game. Public shaming really works ! Just click on the "email" icon and link at the top or bottom of the story and you'll be taken to a form that will allow you email the first story, The Purpose Driven Life Takers or the latest installment without leaving this site. Thanks. 'Left Behind' video game image




My Netroots Nation Panel Talk
By Frederick Clarkson Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 01:51:40 PM EST printable version print story
Where Do We Stand in the Bright Light of History?
Netroots Nation
August 14, 2009

Thank You, Professor Ledewitz, for initiating this discussion of a progressive vision for church and state -- and Netroots Nation for hosting it.

Professor Ledewitz invited this panel to surface objections to his proposal -- and to offer our own ideas as well.  I will do a little of both.   And while I think there are some things about which we undoubtedly agree, I want to focus on our areas of disagreement, which I think will be far more interesting, and I hope, useful for all of you.

Unlike Professor Ledewitz I see history as a living part of the story of who we are and where we are going.   But one of the challenges we have faced as progressives has been the absence of a sufficiently common narrative of that history that takes into account the realities and struggles of the past, identifies common principles that have taken us this far and helps us find ways of articulating them in ways that powerfully reminds us of who we are, were we came from, and where we are going.

Historian Robert Rutland writing about the framers of the constitution and how they approached the matter of church and state, observed that the United States was founded,
"on purpose, in the bright light of history."


The bright light that informed their days included being acutely aware of the long history of religious warfare and persecution in Europe. What's more, theocracies were generally the rule rather than the exception in the 13 colonies for most of the 150 years prior to the drafting of the Constitution. Each had different experiences with their theocratic established churches - one basic element of church establishment was that you had to be a member of the correct sect to vote and hold public office --   the Anglican Church in Virginia, Puritan and Congregationalist churches in New England, but in the cases of Pennsylvania and Rhode Island - there were long experiments in religious liberty.  

This led them to launch one of the greatest experiments in the history of civilization - an experiment whose first principles feature religious equality and pluralism and the right of individual conscience protected and advanced by the clear and unambiguous separation of church and state.

I want to return to this in a moment but first I want to say a few words about Professor Ledewitz' proposal.

In thinking about it this past week, I was reminded of the old joke about a visitor to Boston who gets hopelessly lost driving around. He finally spots a cop to ask directions to his destination:    The officer pauses, and thinks about it for a minute, and says:  "You can't there from here."

I don't think we can get to a progressive vision of church and state from Professor Ledewitz's proposal.    Let's begin with the first sentence of the description of this session in the Netroots Nation program book:

"The old liberal vision of a total separation of religion from politics has been discredited."  

This is a false premise.

Liberalism or progressivism has never had a vision of a total separation of religion from politics. Rather, religious approaches to social justice have always been part of the wider progressive movement. Always.  What's more religious and non-religious people have always worked side by side on the issues of the day, great and small.  Always.  And while some people may have had different experiences, this history is reaffirmed by my own experience of more than 30 years in public life, as well as the experience of everyone I know.  

I think it is worth noting that being non-religious, or secular, is not in itself progressive any more than being religious is necessarily progressive. There are a great many non-religious conservatives -- and anyone who has ever encountered the followers of Ayn Rand knows exactly what I am talking about.  What's more, the political descendents of the Greek philosopher Plato, many of whom are non-religious, view religion as "the noble lie" to be used as a tool of social control by economic and political elites.  Some leaders of today's neoconservative movement are old school Platonists in exactly this way, and this is an important ingredient in their alliance with the Religious Right.

These things said, I want to surface a deeper issue that has wreaked some havoc among us, and I think that we need to address it.

Not only is the notion that liberals advocate a total separation of religion from politics a false premise - this is what the Religious Right has said about liberals and liberalism since the 1950s and 60s when liberals were smeared as godless communists. People like Ann Coulter and Bill O'Reilly blow that dog whistle all the time. O'Reilly frames it by routinely snidely referring to the "secular left" or "secular progressives" as if the Left were Godless and the Right is entirely religious.

As linguist George Lakoff has pointed out when we adopt the frame of our opponents we are likely to lose far more than we gain.  This is especially so, when we consider that this false framing is integral to the theocratic visions of the Religious Right which remains one of the most powerful and successful political and social movements of modern times.

Such acts as posting the Ten Commandments in public buildings and carving In God We Trust over the front door of the new National Visitors Center in Washington, DC - as the House recently voted to do, is part of the advance of the Religious Right in public life.  But let's go to Professor Ledewitz' idea that if only people would redefine God, that our differences about such matters would go away.  

I think that asking religious people whether they are conservative or liberal, to think of God as a just bundle of non-religious values, and non-religious people not to think that God means well, God - is unrealistic at best.  Additionally, the idea of Higher Law is a religious idea that has been invoked by former Operation Rescue leader Randall Terry to argue that not only should certain of the law of the United States not be obeyed, but to justify the idea of a possible revolution against the government of the United States.  Like ""God", the term "higher law" has no one definition and it cannot be definitionally contained by fiat.

What I would rather that we ask of our government, which is to say that we ask ourselves, through all means available and as visibly and clearly -- to speak and to act as the uncompromised guarantor of our rights of individual conscience and never, never toady to powerful religious interests at the expense of the rights of all.

Adopting the framing of the Religious Right can take us into lines of reasoning that further unsurprisingly, reflect the Religious Right.  For example, the Religious Right talks a lot about the Declaration of Independence and hardly ever about the Constitution these days. (Alan Keyes for example, calls himself a Declarationist.)  The reason for this is that those of us who have been fighting this battle over the years have won the point that there is no mention of God or Christianity anywhere in the Constitution.  And this has everything to do with where I think any progressive vision of church and state relations begins, and why I think that invoking the Declaration as a justification for endorsing government religious speech reinforces the frame of the Religious Right.

But let's be clear about what the Declaration was:   It was a revolutionary manifesto intended to be read in town squares and printed in newspapers to rally people rise up against the King of England.  Apparently, it worked pretty well....  

It is an important document in our history, and we look to it as an expression of some of our values -- but it has exactly zero legal or constitutional significance.

About a decade after the Declaration, the leaders of the day reconvened to author the foundational document we call the Constitution. If they had any intention of invoking anything even vaguely religious, they could have done so, but they didn't.

They faced steep challenges, as I mentioned, however. How, with 13 different colonies with very different traditions, and a number of very different established churches, could they stitch together the new nation; how could they take advantage of this historic opportunity to inoculate the new nation against the ravages of religious persecution and warfare that had wracked Europe for too many centuries?

Their answer was as simple as it was revolutionary.   In article six they declared that there would be no religious tests for public office.  This meant that for the first time in the history of the world, people's religious views - or lack thereof -- would be irrelevant to their status as citizens.  You could be Christian or non-Christian, religious or non-religious, or change your mind as many times as you like.  

Article six passed the convention with little debate. But it was perhaps the single most contentious issue when the constitution went to the state legislatures for ratification.

The Religious Right of the 18th century didn't like this. There was no acknowledgement of God. No mention of Christianity.  And the Religious Right of today does not like the unambiguous meanings of the Constitution any more than their ideological ancestors did.  

And that is also why they demagogue the Declaration of Independence, and its invocation of the Creator, as if it reflected the intentions of the framers of the Constitution or any of the ratifying state legislatures with regard to the government's relationship to religion.   It didn't. It doesn't. And we should not make that error in telling our story.  

But there was also opposition to ratification from other quarters.  Thomas Jefferson and his supporters felt that the Constitution did not go far enough. They agreed to support ratification in exchange for a bill of rights.  So the First Amendment, in both its establishment clause and its free exercise clause is not a stand alone statement, but rather a clarification of profound underlying principles. And if we don't get that, we can be easily drawn into such errant notions as the idea that separation of church and state means the separation of religion and politics.  

When then-president Jefferson in 1802 wrote his famous Letter to the Danbury Baptists, he knew he was writing for the ages, and wanted to put on the record his authoritative understanding of the meaning of the First Amendment. His phrase declaring that there is a wall of separation between church and state was a reassurance to the Baptist minority in Connecticut, which had been ill treated by the established Congregational church.  And they needed some reassurance. Connecticut did not get around disestablishing the powerful congregational church until 1818.

The framers, especially Jefferson, wanted to ensure that the basic principles of the right of individual conscience and religious equality would not be subject to coercion or undue influence from either the government or powerful religious institutions.

And I think that this is a matter that is far larger than the occasional spectacle of religious demagogues, lobbying our elected officials to engrave religious graffiti into our public buildings.

So let's not be overly distracted by these unseemly episodes, but let's also not drift into unnecessary accommodationism.    

Among our great strengths and opportunities as progressives are our shared values that are rooted in the core of the constitution itself.   The Religious Right and the neoconservatives do not enjoy this advantage, and they would love it if we would drop this line of argument.

So, let's decide to do even better at fully integrating these values into our politics. The right to believe as you will, to believe differently than the rich and the powerful, is the necessary prerequisite to freedom of speech and assembly and all that that means for vigorous participation in the political process - particularly in the areas of progressive social change.

(In the interests of time, I stopped here. But here I the rest of what I had prepared.)

Looking back, like any other great principles, it has taken time to integrate them into our culture, politics and laws. I think it can be fairly said that we are still working on it.  But these principles are as vital and alive and arguably controversial today as they were during the fierce debates over the ratification of the constitution.  Nevertheless, they hold the hope and the promise to take us forward in dynamic and clear eyed ways if we embrace them and don't let anyone tell us we have to give them up in the name of finding common ground with those who frankly do not share them.

And to really place this at the center of the history of progressive struggle for social justice -- let's acknowledge that constitution did not recognize the rights of women, or people who were not landowners, let alone slaves or Native Americans - but it was this right of conscience, the right to believe differently than official religions designed to prop up established orders -- that paved the way for every advance in human and civil rights we have seen since, and are likely to see in the future.  

That said, let's note one element of the continuing struggle. As religious and non-religious progressives we share a dynamic and visionary set of core values with the framers of the constitution and we have been effective in pushing back on the religious right's argument that America was founded as Christian nation, a heritage that they say has been stolen from them by a conspiracy of liberals, judicial tyrants, and the ACLU. Not to mention of course the author of it all Satan himself.  But, we must not turn a blind eye to the profound contest underway for the narrative of American history.  Even Newt Gingrich has gotten in on the act, with recent book and a film in which he gives a tour of Washington DC in which he seeks to Demonstrate America's Christian heritage and to put it in the service of his contemporary political goals.  

That is one reason why we do not need a government that is empowered to employ religious language as the rule rather than the eccentric and mostly symbolic exception. It is a slippery slope on which we need not, and must not set foot.  

See related post, Torch the Strawman



Display:

WWW Talk To Action


I'll Die Another Day
As many of you know, I am now recovering at home after two weeks in the hospital and some harrowing experiences. I am feeling......
By Frederick Clarkson (2 comments)
What Palin's "Jewish people will be flocking to Israel" statement really means
Stumping for her new autobiography, Sarah Palin has made a round of interviews with high profile media figures such as Oprah Winfrey and Barbara......
By Bruce Wilson (3 comments)
Render Unto Caesar: District Tax Officials End Free Ride For Religious Right's `C Street House'
Remember all the talk last summer about the mysterious "C Street house" in Washington, D.C.? The structure, owned by a clandestine evangelical Christian organization......
By Rob Boston (0 comments)
The Africa Connection to the Attack on the Mainline Churches
Three years ago, in an essay in The Public Eye magazine, I outlined how the neoconservative and Religious Right campaign to divide and conquer......
By Frederick Clarkson (2 comments)
Prevaricating Pastors: Mendacious Ministers Prove It's Still Legal To Be Bigots
It's no secret that I'm not a fan of the Religious Right. Through my work at Americans United, I've opposed this movement for 22......
By Rob Boston (2 comments)
Palin's Prayer Leader Hinted Terrorist Attack Could Make Sarah President
In the final weeks of the 2008 presidential election, one of the religious leaders closest to Sarah Palin hinted that the Alaska governor might......
By Bruce Wilson (7 comments)
Hagee, Rodriguez Embrace Signals Massive New Alignments On Christian Right
As JTA News has just reported, John Hagee's Christians United For Israel (CUFI), which represents many millions of American Christian Zionist evangelicals, has formed......
By Bruce Wilson (2 comments)
Archbishop Dolan Disparages Reform and Dissent As "Anti-Catholicism"
In posting on his blog site, recently installed Archbishop for the Diocese of New York, Timothy Dolan, accused The New York Times of anti-Catholicism.......
By Frank Cocozzelli (5 comments)
Bart Stupak, Family 'Minister', Wrapped in C Street Like a Bug in a Rug
Even while protesting that he isn't trying to kill health care reform, House Representative Bart Stupak (D-Mich), who has incurred the wrath of the......
By Bruce Wilson (2 comments)
Unhealthy Trend: House Action On Abortion Showcases Power Of Bishops' Lobby
When political pundits talk about the power of religious groups to affect public policy in Washington, most tend to focus on the Religious Right.......
By Rob Boston (1 comment)
Author of Ugandan Anti-Homosexuality Bill and the "College of Prayer International"
The Uganda New Vision reports the latest on David Bahati, the MP behind the proposed draconian "Anti-Homosexuality Bill"; he was among attendees at a......
By Richard Bartholomew (3 comments)
Rick Warren Repudiates Martin Ssempa
From Warren Throckmorton's blog: STATEMENT FROM PASTOR RICK & KAY WARREN REGARDING ACTIVITIES OF MARTIN SSEMPA IN UGANDA Martin Ssempa does not represent me,......
By Richard Bartholomew (2 comments)
Dobson And Destiny: Will Religious Right Leader Turn His Focus To Electioneering?
James Dobson, founder of Focus on the Family (FOF), is not a happy camper these days.  "What is happening in Washington right now is......
By Rob Boston (5 comments)
Resource Page on John Hagee and Christian Zionism
Special Focus:  Christian Zionism Following are a list of articles on Christian Zionism that have been posted on Talk2action.org over a period of several......
By Bruce Wilson (1 comment)
Progressive Catholics in Maine Push Back on Question One
On Tuesday November 3rd, voters in Maine can either vote yes or no on "Question One," a potential people's veto of recently enacted legislation......
By Frank Cocozzelli (7 comments)

Mark Silk on the Hagee / Rodriguez Entente
Mark Silk, at Spiritual Politics has picked up on my notice of the Hagee-Rodriguez embrace and zeroes in on what's certainly one of the most notable aspects: "The key thing to understand about the......
By Bruce Wilson (1 comment)
Inscribing Christian Values in our Children Before Birth?
Following the evolution of evangelical discourse as it re-defines homosexuality as evidence of "fallen creation", Terri Murray looks at how the Christian right have shifted their rhetoric to adapt to empirical research showing that......
By TMurray (0 comments)
US News & World Report Showcases Creationist Ray Comfort
US News and World Report's Dan Gilgoff has charitably provided evangelist Ray Comfort a media platform in the form of a US News & World "exclusive" through which Comfort defends his efforts to distribute,......
By Bruce Wilson (0 comments)
Atheist billboard in Central Florida
The organization "Atheists of Florida" sponsored a billboard promoting atheism in Lakeland, Florida.  I, however, have some concerns. ......
By ArchaeoBob (1 comment)
Transcript: Billy Graham and Richard Nixon, February 21, 1973
The following is my own transcript of a 20 minute phone conversation between Richard Nixon and Billy Graham, on February 23, 1973. As far as I am aware this is the only publicly available,......
By Bruce Wilson (0 comments)
Rifqa Bary being sent back to Ohio now
Well, there's a change in this case.  After the judge gets immigration documents and so on from the parents, he will send her back. ......
By ArchaeoBob (0 comments)
The War on The War on Christmas Goes To Pot
The first day of Fall could be considered the official launch date for the annual war on the war on Christmas, which represents a significant part of the the American Family Association business model......
By Bruce Wilson (1 comment)
School Officials off the hook
Today it is reported that the judge excused the school officials who violated the agreement they had over separation of Church and State. ......
By ArchaeoBob (0 comments)
Dominionists trying to outlaw birth control
Well, they're at it again in Florida. ......
By ArchaeoBob (2 comments)
No Danger for Rifqa Bary
The FDLE just completed an investigation and found "no credible reports of threats" against Rifqa Bary. ......
By ArchaeoBob (1 comment)
Truth hitting the mainstream!
I've despaired of ever seeing anything critical or exposing Dominionism hit the mainstream press.  There is now an exception. ......
By ArchaeoBob (0 comments)
Extremism?
The term extremism is currently in vogue to describe hate groups and other malcontents listed as such by knowledgeable monitors like SPLC and others in the T2A sidebar, but while we all know what......
By Jay Taber (2 comments)
My Netroots Nation Panel Talk
Where Do We Stand in the Bright Light of History? Netroots Nation August 14, 2009 Thank You, Professor Ledewitz, for initiating this discussion of a progressive vision for church and state -- and Netroots......
By Frederick Clarkson (0 comments)
Transcript, Jan. 18, 2009 Steven Anderson Sermon Excerpt
Note: the sermon excerpt video and transcript below, from a January 18, 2009 sermon by pastor Steven Anderson of the Tempe, Arizona Independent Baptist Church, begins at approximately 21:30 into Anderson's  one hour, four......
By Bruce Wilson (0 comments)
More anti-Muslim provocation
The local paper reports that students in Gainsville, Florida are wearing T-shirts with "ISLAM IS OF THE DEVIL" printed on them. ......
By ArchaeoBob (1 comment)
Rifqa Bary to stay in Florida
The young ex-Muslim girl who ran away from her parents will be allowed to stay in Florida.  The news article has strong indications that this is purely political. ......
By ArchaeoBob (10 comments)
Framing Fascism
In her recent article, Sara Robinson argues the United States is well on its way to becoming a totalitarian, fascist state. As evidence of this inevitability, she cites current town hall disruptions and threats......
By Jay Taber (11 comments)
Rock Paper Scissors
GOP-sponsored vigilantism has happened before. It is an integral part of domestic terrorism aimed at ethnic minorities and other sub-populations targeted by White Nationalism and Christian Fundamentalism. Catholics, Jews, Blacks, and Native Americans have......
By Jay Taber (3 comments)
PA Shooter's Church taught: "You can commit mass murder, then still go to heaven"
George Sodini, the 48-year-old misogynist who shot up a Pennsylvania Gym full of women on Aug. 4th, killing three women before turning the gun on himself, believed God wouldn't judge him by his actions.......
By Stacey Tallitsch (0 comments)
Vatican grilling Catholic sisters
While I am not Catholic, I accidentally ran across this article which is of interest to us on this blog - it involves Vatican actions that concern attempts at political control... ......
By ArchaeoBob (3 comments)
Sect Controls Women's Destinies
by Carolyn Jessop and Laura Palmer On The Issues Magazine Had I not escaped one night five years ago with my eight children from the manipulation and control of the FLDS (Fundamentalist Church of......
By On The Issues Magazine (4 comments)
The Religion of Fear
<h2> Living on Guard</h2> In The Religion of Fear, Jason C. Bivins examines conservative evangelical culture as it intersects with America's love affair with spectacular violence and the popular culture of fright that has......
By Jay Taber (2 comments)
Monvee: Profiles of the Mega-churched.
[ed: updated from diary section] Over the last 20 years, a consolidation from the small protestant church has given way to the "Mega-church" where community fellowship goes to die, and prosperity-gospel-rock-concerts are born. Just......
By Stacey Tallitsch (12 comments)
Woman Shoots ex-Husband in Groin, To "Let The Demons Out"
An investigating detective read an entry from a three ring binder, written shortly before the crime: "I know now what I have to do. There are three demonic spirits in (Dr. Loher), one assigned......
By Bruce Wilson (0 comments)
Separation of Church and State attacked in Florida
A Central Florida organization, "The Community Issues Council" has funded a number of billboards attacking the separation of Church and State, using "Quotes" from some of the Founding Fathers. ......
By ArchaeoBob (5 comments)
Radio host: We're only united through Christianity
Most of you in Indiana may know about Peter Heck, who hosts a daily radio show in Kokomo and puts out a column that appears in several newspapers across the state and in OneNewsNow.......
By Christian Dem in NC (2 comments)
Cindy Jacobs--the new leader of the NAR
You may remember that Lou Engle has made moves of late to position himself as the new power in the religious right.  He's a member of the Apostolic Council of Prophetic Elders, a group......
By Christian Dem in NC (3 comments)
James F. Linzey Espouses anti-Semitic, White Racialist Conspiracy Theory
James F. Linzey is a prominent, active duty chaplain in the United States military. Linzey has stated that he was the command chaplain for the Operation Iraqi Freedom troop mobilization prior to the US......
By Bruce Wilson (4 comments)
White Supremacist named as Holocaust Museum Shooter
An 89 year old, vehemently antiSemitic  Ron Paul supporter has been named by police as the gunman who opened fire in the Holocaust Museum shortly after noon today: Gunman, guard shot at Holocaust museum......
By CynthiaGee (0 comments)
From Focus On The Family to La Familia Michoacana
I didn't think my work on the religous right would converge with what I'm doing on the narcoguerra in Mexico...but here it is: the Faith-Based Cartel. ......
By julydogs (2 comments)

More Diaries...


Donate to or support
Talk to Action

Left Behind: Eternal Forces: Installments of Jonathan Hutson's Talk To Action expose series on the "Left Behind: Eternal Forces" video game have been viewed by up to 1/2 million people. See our site section featuring Over 35 original articles covering the controversial "Left Behind: Eternal Forces" video game that has provoked a boycott by a coalition of religious groups and a letter writing campaign urging Walmart to stop selling the game. Media inquiries click here
(image: detail from Francoise Dubois' rendition of the Bartholomew's Day Massacre reveals the actual nature of religious warfare)