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Words Can Surely Hurt You: Why It's Important to Use the Language of Values
By TheovannaWed Dec 07, 2005 at 12:47:41 AM EST
topic: section:Diary printable version print this story
(This is my first diary entry, and I am not sure about the purpose of the "Intro" field, but I am required to fill it in, so I will add the statement that I welcome your comments.)
     I usually don't feel like screaming at people who can't hear me unless I am watching a football game on TV ("Throw, you idiot, throw!  You have a man open in the end zone!"), but a telling exchange during a recent C-Span program on stem-cell research almost caused me to give voice.

     There were 3 or 4 panelists on the program, but the only two I remember were the representative of a religious activist organization who opposed the research and an earnest young man from the Christopher Reeve Foundation who supported it.  The debate was remarkably polite given the contentious and polarized nature of the subject matter, and all the panelists presented cogent arguments to support their positions.

     Then, at the end of the program, the moderator asked the panelists to sum up.  The young man from the Foundation listed a number of illnesses and injuries that could potentially be treated with fetal stem cells.  The religious activist replied, "There may indeed be some pragmatic arguments in favor of stem cell research, but we prefer to take the moral position," and the discussion ended.

     That's when I wanted to scream.  I wanted the young man to say, "Wait a minute.  This isn't about pragmatism versus morality.  I see nothing moral about letting hundreds or thousands of my fellow human beings suffer and die when we have technology that may save them.  I understand that you have a different view, and you have every right to it, but you have absolutely no right to label your view as the only moral position and my view as something else.  I view my position as a moral position too."

    The point here isn't that the young man from the Foundation did a poor job.  Everyone who has spoken in public knows that you always think of your best remarks on the way home.  It is possible that the young man from the Foundation truly didn't see his position as a moral one.  More likely, he was taken by surprise and didn't want to interrupt the moderator's concluding remarks.  However, I believe that there are some remarks, and this was one, that just shouldn't be allowed to stand unchallenged.  (If the activist had said, "We believe all those supposed therapies you mentioned are fictitious concoctions of a Yiddish conspiracy promoted by the Elders of Zion," you can bet something more would have been said.  My point here is that what he actually did say was equally demanding of a response.)

     I don't know if the activist's concluding thrust was a deliberate, calculated attempt to put a moral "spin" on his side of the issue or something that just came to him naturally, the product of his familiarity with the language of values and the easy assumption of moral superiority that most members of the Religious Right seem to possess.  And it doesn't really matter (except that, as I discuss below, we need to become familiar with the language of values too).  What matters is that viewers of the program were left with the unrebutted claim that the debate over stem-cell research is a contest between morality and pragmatism.

      If you think little things like this don't have an effect, consider another incident during a C-Span program I saw shortly after the presidential election.  It involved a focus group of Ohio voters, half who voted for Kerry, half who voted for Bush, explaining why they voted as they did.

     When asked why he voted for Bush, one fellow said, "I had doubts about Kerry's values."  The moderator asked him why, and he replied, "Well, I'm not absolutely sure about this, but Kerry was running as a Democrat, so I just assumed he was a liberal."  

     A Kerry voter on the other side of the table who had already given his explanation for his vote, said, "I find that statement deeply offensive," and so he should have.  But consider this:  The Bush voter did not appear to be a political activist, just a regular guy, and I doubt activists on either side would have been chosen for the focus group.  And the Bush voter was trying to be fair.  He admitted that he wasn't really sure that Kerry was a liberal and seemed a little worried that he might have made an unfair assumption on that point.

     However, the Bush voter didn't seem hesitant at all in his believe that, if Kerry was indeed a liberal, then Kerry had dubious moral values.  (And, in this context, I think "liberal" is less a poli-sci-class-like descriiption of a person with a particular opinion on the role of government and more a code word for everyone who disagrees with the social and religious agenda of the Religious Right.)

     I'm not suggesting that the Bush voter came to his conclusion about the morality of liberals because he watched the same program on stem-cell research that I did; I don't even know which came first.  But I am suggesting that exposure to dozens of incidents like the one at the end of that program, coupled with exposure to the many much more explicit assertions that liberals lack values, that our traditional values are under attack from the left, that active devotion to the conservative religious agenda is the only way to counter the moral break-down of our society, etc., etc. have had their effect.

     Part of the solution, it seems to me, is for those of us who oppose the Religious Right as a matter of principle to become confortable with the language of values, to use that language whenever it is appropriate, and to vocally resist attempts, like those by the religious activist at the stem-cell debate, to hijack that language and recast the moral universe.

     Moreover, I think it is important for us to use that language with regard to EVERY issue for which it is appropriate, not just those issues that obviously relate to the separation of church and state.  To be sure, that controvery alone provides many opportunites for stating moral principles -- principles of tolerance, compassion, opposition to bullying and intimidation, and support for fundamental American constitutional values.  But I don't think confining the language of values to that area will be sufficient.

     Imagine, if you can, a religious conservative who was also a constitutionalist.  He might say to his colleagues and those uncommitted Christians who were curious about whether they should join the Religious Right, "I agree that the people who refuse to abide by our version of Biblical law are irresponsible, immoral scum who threaten our families and the way of life we hold dear, but I also believe strongly in the First Amendment to our American Constitution, and the First Amendment says we have to let them have their say."  I don't think he would gain many adherents.  More likely, people would start talking about the need to repeal the First Amendment.

     For many people who are, or who perceive themselves to be, in the religious majority, religious freedom is an abstraction with little apparent utility.  Education in American colonial history helps (the Pilgrims, the Quakers, Roger Williams, etc.) as does education in American constitutional history, but most people who are out of school would rather read People Magazine or Sports Illustrated than pick up a history textbook (an attitude I share).  It can help immensely just to view those of other beliefs as decent, worthwhile human beings.  Sometimes friendship isn't enough to repel religous bigotry, as the very troubling events in Sarajevo (once a peaceful multiculteral community with many inter-religious friendships and even intermarriage) show, but I still believe that having a close friend who is a Jew, a Muslim, or an atheist will usually do more to keep a Christian from becoming a Religous Right zealot than reading a tract on religious freedom will.

     Now imagine seeing a public figure on TV who says, "We have a MORAL RESPONSIBILITY to help the people devastated by Hurricane Katrina."  (Not just, "We MUST help the victims of Hurricane Katrina.")  Your brain adds his statements, and your interpretation of his statements, to its database about what he's like.  Both statements indicate that he cares about people, but the first also indicates that he cares about moral responsibility.  Then, when you later see him debating someone from the Religious Right and the rightist says, "Your problem is that we care about moral responsibility and you don't," your brain may say, "Wait a minute. . . ."  That's a lot more powerful than having him say it.  In most cases, I'm going to believe what my own brain tells me over what some politician tells me.

     The first Hurricane Katrina statement also has the virtue of subtlety.  The politician didn't say outright, "I believe in moral responsibility," which might cause a somewhat critical listener to think, "He's a politician; I wonder if he's telling the truth about that."  The politician didn't appear to be talking about his beliefs at all; he was talking about what should be done in the wake of Hurricane Katrina.  But his statement nevertheless conveyed his belief in moral responsibility.

     And for those of us who are not public figures, the same principle applies to our conversations with our brothers and sisters, our friends, our neighbors, and our coworkers.  If these people perceive us as people who take moral positions in non-theological areas (and, of course, if they also see that we back up our moral statements with moral actions), it will be more difficult for them to demonize us when the conversations turns to the push for theocracy.




Display:
I almost agree completely.

I agree with the idea that liberals should make themselves comfortable with the use of moral language.

And, furthermore, this is not to be done for pragmatic reasons. It should not be done because "our words will then have more impact." It should be done with the firm belief and conviction that there are moral issues -- issues of right and wrong -- with letting people starve or to block the help that they may receive from advances in medical research.

In fact, this is precisely why I spend so much time on my own blog and in participating in projects such as this -- to put issues in moral terms and to (hopefully) make people comfortable with moral language. My most recent contribution here -- The War on Christmas? -- was designed to put that issue in the context of a discussion of moral character.

The "almost" qualifier in my opening statement comes from the phrase, "...you have absolutely no right to label your view as the only moral position and my view as something else.  I view my position as a moral position too."

This completely cuts the legs out of any moral claim that one might make.

Now, please don't get bent out of shape over this, but Hitler could use just such a statement. And, in doing so, this explains why such a statement can be easily dismissed.

The idea that all moral systems are equal -- that one moral system is just as good as any other -- is a claim that the vast majority of the people are uncomfortable with, as they should be.

One of the charges that the religious conservatives use is the charge of 'moral relativism'. "These liberals treat all moral systems as equal. If all moral systems are equal, than Stalinist Russia and Nazi Germany, let alone our own slave culture before 1865, are equal to our own. If they are all equal, then there can be no moral objection to instituting one of these other systems."

It is a powerful argument. The reason that it is a powerful argument is because it is accurate.

A person has to be willing to say, "This moral system is BETTER than yours. It is BETTER because it saves lives. It is BETTER because it feeds the poor. It is BETTER because it provide a higher level of education. It is BETTER because it respects each person's right to deny the use of their body by another person without their consent. It is BETTER because it does not kill innocent people. It is BETTER because . . ."

If one is not willing to claim that their moral system is BETTER, then one cannot give a reason to adopt it.
Alonzo Fyfe

The Atheist Ethicist
by Alonzo Fyfe on Wed Dec 07, 2005 at 08:24:46 AM EST

positive and workable argument FOR moral relativism.

"This moral system is BETTER than yours. It is BETTER because it saves lives. It is BETTER because it feeds the poor. It is BETTER because it provide a higher level of education. It is BETTER because it respects each person's right to deny the use of their body by another person without their consent. It is BETTER because it does not kill innocent people. It is BETTER because . . ."

One question: If a person comes back with "my truth is absolute and yours is only better" type of counter-argument, how can better beat best?

(I don't mean to plague only you with my questions, but I really like your arguments.)

Thanks

Good essay, Theovanna. Thank you, too.

by carole on Wed Dec 07, 2005 at 12:19:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thanks for the compliment.

In response to your question, how much detail do you want? (I am considering a diary entry on this topic, to cover some of the details.)

If a person simply insists, "This system is best", he has taken himself out of any rational discussion. What do you say to a person who says, "The earth is the center of the universe?" but he is unwilling to discuss arguments? If he is unwilling to discuss arguments, there can be no discussion.

If he is willing to discuss arguments, then start bringing up the issues that I raised above. Will it save lives? Will the people become more educated and more empowered to direct their lives the way they please? Will it bring peace? Will it feed the hungry and provide medical care to the sick?

Note: This is not a "liberal vs conservative" distinction. There is a lot of room for fair and honest disagreement between conservatives and liberals on these issues. What, actually, is the best system for feeding the hungry and providing medical care to the sick?

Actually, anybody actually concerned with these issues is not going to want to simply shut out 'conservative' ideas for feeding the poor and providing better medical care that might actually work. To do this is to condemn those who might be helped.

This is a response to those who say, something like, "My system will do none of these things -- rather, it causes famine, allows disease to spread unhindered, promotes ignorance, and costs lives, but is still best," can be viewed as akin to somebody saying that the earth is still the center of the solar system.

The reason they do not want to examine the evidence is because the evidence is against them.
Alonzo Fyfe

The Atheist Ethicist
by Alonzo Fyfe on Wed Dec 07, 2005 at 01:55:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

typical conversation about sex education, pregnancy, and aids.

Absolutist:  Sex education should be left to the parents, not the schools or the governmnet. The only solution to aids and teen pregnancy is abstinence. Anything else promotes promiscuity and is against God's will. (Something like this, anyway).

Me:  Actually, abstinence as a solution is ineffective.  In terms of the number of lives saved and the number of pregnancies lowered, condoms are the better answer. It is better to save lives than judge them. A teenager with aids is not likely to worry about his/her morals. But the same teenager that has a future is likely to include morality in her life, if she is not "paying" for a past mistake. Etc, etc.

While I think that my argument makes better sense than the absolutist's, my experience with the fundies I've met, doesn't leave me confident that anything will change.

If you are going to do a diary, I'd like to know how to make my part 'better'.  And I also realize that most fundies aren't going to listen, anyway. It's the rest of the population that has seemingly come under their spell that I would like to address.

Thanks again.  This is tremendously helpful.

by carole on Wed Dec 07, 2005 at 06:52:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I have a rule when I write. I imagine a fence, with people on both sides, and several on the fence itself.

I do not aim my arguments for the people who are standing way back on the far side of the fence. They are too far away to hear me.

I aim my arguments at those who are sitting on the fence, suggesting that they climb down on my side. And I aim them at those who are on the other side but standing very near the fence, suggesting thta they climb on.

Plus, I try to stand very near to the fence myself, because (perhaps) I should be the one climbing on the fence and, if the arguments have merit, climbing down the other side.

Besides, the company is better near the fence. Extremists on both sides, who insist on being as far away from the fence as they can get, typically do not make for a quality discussion.
Alonzo Fyfe

The Atheist Ethicist
by Alonzo Fyfe on Thu Dec 08, 2005 at 12:26:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

It's better to be happy than right.  (Right, as in correct.)

The goals are to understand where the Christians (all varieties) are coming from, especially politically, and then be able to hold up my end of the conversation, never mind sway anyone's thinking.

In between life's happenings today, I have worked on sorting out and understanding Reconstructionism and dominionism, not to  be conflated with dominion theology, ideologies.

Your fence image is helpful.  Thanks.

by carole on Fri Dec 09, 2005 at 03:27:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]






     Preliminarily, while I do agree that we should begin or increase our use of the language of values primarily because values are important and we are in fact dealing with issues where values are relevant, I don't feel pragmatism is out of the picture.  The longer I live (and in some restaurants I now qualify for a senior citizen discount), the more convinced I become that the "right" (morally correct) thing is also always, at least in the long run, the "politically effective" thing.  This may not matter to someone like yourself who is deeply concerned with moral issues and needs no incentive to do the right thing, but it may be a useful insight when the time comes (as I believe it certainly will) when we have to confront those who share our opposition to the Religious Right but believe that the best approach is to "fight fire with fire" and adopt equally corrupt and abusive tactics.

     On your main point, your criticism of my desire to have the representative of the Christopher Reeve Foundation characterize both his position AND the position of the Religious Right activist as "moral" positions, our disagreement is essentially semantic.

     I was not using "moral" in the sense of "good" and as the opposite of "immoral," "bad," or "evil."  If I were, then your charge of supporting moral relativism would have merit.  However, I was using "moral" in the sense of "motivated by principle and a belief in what constitutes correct behavior" and as the opposite of "pragmatic," "self-interested," and "motivated exclusively by a desire for material benefit."  In that sense, I believe that it would be correct to classify both positions as "moral" ones.  Although I believe that there are some Religious Right activists who use the language of values as a sham to conceal their base desires to subjugate and oppress others, I also believe that many are sincere, and I think it best to give those about whom one is unsure the benefit of the doubt.

     Nevertheless, your criticism is a worthwhile one because you correctly point out that my off-the-cuff response is somewhat ambiguous and might not only cause confusion but also provoke some unjustified but still troublesome rejoinders.  When I wrote that "we" need to become more comfortable with the language of values, I definitely meant to include myself in that group.  I hope that part of that process will involve becoming more aware of how our statements might be interpretted by others so that we can avoid these unintended consequences.

by Theovanna on Wed Dec 14, 2005 at 05:08:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Practicality has some value. Yet, on the question of right and wrong, I think it is most practical to also be right.

A response from the Christopher Reeve Foundation that I would have argued for would be something like . . .

"I'm trying to save lives. You are willing to stand back and watch them die, wring your hands and say it is all part of 'God's Plan'. I see God (if there is a God) looking down on us and saying, 'You idiots! I created stem cells for a reason!"
Alonzo Fyfe

The Atheist Ethicist
by Alonzo Fyfe on Wed Dec 14, 2005 at 08:23:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]



Liberals are not moral relativists. If they were, they wouldn't object to the things that conservatives want to do.


by Lefty Mama on Mon Dec 19, 2005 at 08:46:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]


I think you have not a lot of experience with these people. I live in their midst and I cannot find anyone who will admit to having what I call moral values.

You used the example of the necessity of helping the victims of Katrina. Dominionists and Reconstructionists are not interested in helping anyone who is not like them. They are most certainly not interested in helping African-Americans or Oriental Americans or Hispanic Americans. They are as cold-blooded as some creatures in sci-fi movies. If these people are suffering, they say "too bad". "They will just have to deal with it".

Look at who in the government DID NOT help the people on the Gulf Coast. Trent Lott has not said a word about helping African Americans. He just want his house rebuilt and more money for his ship building friends who are NOT African Americans. Haley Barbour isn't worried about homeless African Americans or Hispanic Americans. He wants more tax dollars for  his niece who is NOT African American.

Dominionists and Reconstructionists are not Christians like the people you know. Evangelicals are Christians. They talk about "the Lord Jesus Christ". Dominionists and Reconstructionists only mention Jesus when they are trying to pull the wool over everyone else's eyes.

I held a conversation with a woman about the morning after pill. She was pleased that Wal-Mart pharmacies refused to sell the pill. I asked her if she didn't think it important to sell the pill to young women who had been raped. She assured me that it was just too bad if the woman was raped. The woman would just have to "deal" with it and have the baby and raise it. I asked how the young woman would know, within hours of being raped, if she were actually pregnant. She told me the young woman would not have to know. She couldn't take the pill because she "might" be pregnant. I asked what if the young woman was only 12 years old and she said that was too bad, her parents would have to raise the baby.

These people do not have what you and I call "moral" values. They only use the word moral to attack those who are not Reconstructionists or Dominionist.

They are bigots, racists, white supremacists. Read what they say about their plans for taking over the government. Read what they plan to do when they have instituted Mosaic Law in place of the US Constitution.

They know little or nothing about Jesus and they do NOT follow Him. They do NOT believe in compassion and mercy. They believe is enslaving African Americans and Amerinds. They don't discuss their plans for the Jews, but then, we all know what those plans are, don't we?

Educate yourself about them. Learn to identify them. They are not your average evangelicals. Learn about what they call "stealth" and learn to use it against them. Watch what is happening with Ralph Reed and Jack Abramoff. Learn about the Council For National Policy. Reed and Abramoff were/are members.

If we, who have moral values, do not regain the high ground, America is facing a terrible future.


by copperqueen on Fri Dec 09, 2005 at 12:17:13 PM EST

    I believe, sadly, that you are correct in stating that the Dominionists and Reconstructionists are not like most of the Christians I know and not at all like the Congregationalists who provided my first religious education in the Christian faith.  I am trying to force myself away from the idea that  it will be a sufficient, conclusive rebuttal at least to their more outrageous positions to simply say, "But that should not be the position a Christian takes because Jesus said . . . ."  At one time, I naively believed that would be all it would take to resolve the issue, so we could all shake hands and move on to other issues, but, thanks in part to the postings at this site, I am coming to the realization that I was wrong.

     Nevertheless, I stand by my position that it is important to use the language of values, both because, as Alonzo Fyfe notes, that is important in and of itself, but also because hard-core Dominionists and Reconstructionists are not the only people we should try to reach.

     Although there are more people than I would like in the hard core, there are many, many more people who are POTENTIAL supporters of the Religious Right, and hence potential Dominionists and Reconstructionists, who DO have what both you and I would agree are true moral values.  These people are devout Christians who are concerned with what they perceive without prompting to be a moral break-down in society and with what they have been relentlessly told, and hence may believe, is an attack on their faith.  These people will, I believe, be influenced in a positive way by seeing that people outside the Religious Right are talking about moral values.

     Consider too that your charge of racist motivation is not immediately apparent to some of those most directly affected.  Both African-Americans and Hispanics are being targeted by the Religious Right, and that campaign has not been entirely unsuccessful.  On another post at this site, I read that one of the RR mega-churches is 40 percent African-American.  During the controversy over gay marriage prior to the last election, I myself saw a Black minister on TV who was as vehement in his opposition as any Falwell or Dobson; he expressed particular outrage at the claim that opponents were engaging in "discrimination," saying that he had experienced discrimination first-hand and this wasn't it.

     Besides, copperqueen, why isn't my suggestion worth a try?  I agree that it isn't all we should do, and I never said it was, but it doesn't involve a huge expenditure of time, effort, or resources, just some education and discussion and a conscious change of approach.  What do you think would work better?  You said that we must "regain the high ground."  I think my approach is one way to try to do that.  What do you think we should do instead?

by Theovanna on Wed Dec 14, 2005 at 05:50:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]



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Palin's Churches and the Third Wave Series By The New Apostolic Reformation Research Team Introduction A video starring Thomas Muthee as a prayer warrior and witch hunter was released in 1999. "Transformations" was the......
By Ruth (0 comments)
Spiritual Mapping and Spiritual Warfare - Muthee and the "Transformations" Franchise / 2
Palin's Churches and the Third Wave Series By The New Apostolic Reformation Research Team Part Two (continued)part one     part three A video starring Thomas Muthee as a prayer warrior and witch hunter was released in 1999.......
By Ruth (1 comment)
Spiritual Mapping and Spiritual Warfare - Muthee and the "Transformations" Franchise / 3
Palin's Churches and the Third Wave Series By The New Apostolic Reformation Research Team Part Three (continued)part one     part two There are Transformations networks connected to Sentinel Group and "prayer warriors" under the authority of Wagner's......
By Ruth (0 comments)
Rev Andrew Weaver: A Fighter for Justice to the End
In the world of the intertubes the word "friend" has taken on a whole new meaning. A friend can be someone you've never met, never even talked to except through the medium of the......
By mick arran (0 comments)
Setting Priorities
Two of the people with the most on-the-ground experience in dealing with white christian nationalists in the United States -- Devin Burghart and Eric Ward (both currently with Center for New Community's Building Democracy......
By Jay Taber (0 comments)
Christianity was Hijacked
Kevin Annett's documentary film Unrepentant tells the story of the Canadian holocaust. For those unfamiliar with the systematic mass murder of indigenous people in Canada by the United Church of Canada and the Canadian......
By Jay Taber (0 comments)
IMAGINE: Media as a Sanctuary for Dissent
"The media should be a sanctuary for dissent. It is our job to go to where the silence is."-Amy Goodman ......
By eileen fleming (0 comments)
Berlet, Clarkson and Maley on the Radio
The syndicated radio program Writer's Voice , which originates at WMUA, the radio station at the University of Massachusetts at Amherst, recently featured Dispatches contributors Chip Berlet, Leo Maley, and me in an hour......
By Frederick Clarkson (0 comments)
Reconquering a Continent
When it comes to threatening behavior, mainstream media's cover-up of Governor Palin's violent friends is a much bigger story than her abuse of power. Of particular interest to Native Americans -- according to Dr.......
By Jay Taber (0 comments)
Power of Moral Sanction
With the question of how to effectively oppose the rise of fascism in the United States now in vogue, I thought it apropos to revisit this essay from 2002, The Power of Moral Sanction.......
By Jay Taber (0 comments)
Where's the Action?
It would seem the objective of action is at hand. Organizing for that step can take multiple forms, but one that is essential to any political success is generating a list of supporters and......
By Jay Taber (5 comments)
Dispatches from the Religious Left -- on Grit TV
Following the dramatic launch event for Dispatches from the Religious Left: The Future of Faith and Politics in America, held at Middle Collegiate Church in NYC, Laura Flanders invited several of us to appear......
By Frederick Clarkson (1 comment)
Remembering Iran-Contra
For those too young to have watched the live TV coverage of the Iran-Contra scandal, the notion of murderous felonies being coordinated out of the White House basement might seem fanciful. With the new......
By Jay Taber (1 comment)
The Problem With Militias
Sarah Palin supports the militia movement? Public Good Project's Paul de Armond explains why that's a problem. ......
By Jay Taber (0 comments)
Assemblies of God, Palin, and me
I spent eight years of my life as a Pentecostal in the Assembly of God. It's as odd and alien a sect to most people as Mitt Romney's Mormonism. ......
By whaleman42 (2 comments)
Dispatches from the Religious Left -- Now Available!
At least it is now "in stock" over at Amazon.com. It should also be widely available in independent bookstores and chain stores as well.  I will not clutter this site with too much news......
By Frederick Clarkson (0 comments)
Transcript for Mary Glazier Video
Transcript of Audio "Opening the Gate of Heaven on Earth: Receiving the New Prophetic Wind for Increase" Conference, June 12 - 14, Everett, Washington Description of Conference at: <a href="http://freshpublishing.com/global-harvest-ministries-c-192-p-1-pr-33372.html ">http://freshpublishing.com/global-harvest-ministries-c-192-p-1-pr-33372.html Mary Glazier Alaska......
By Ruth (0 comments)
"Seven Mountains" and the "Joel's Army" plan for takeover
In yesterday's post, I went into some of the initial detail on a statement given by Thomas Muthee in the infamous sermon where he "annointed" Sarah Palin and also claimed to literally run a......
By dogemperor (0 comments)
Christian Fascism
[also see: Brent Bozell's Newbusters Insults Christian Conservatives - editor] Sarah Palin's propulsion into politics was fueled by religious intolerance, organized through malicious harassment, and targeted at democracy. Her use of the power of......
By Jay Taber (0 comments)

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