No secularist is trying to take your spirituality away from you or to end your human rights to think as you choose.

Fundamentalists are committed to taking your sexual identity away from you and to end your human rights as a lesbian.


by cyncooper on Fri Jan 20, 2006 at 01:57:08 AM EST

First, you describe yourself as "a lesbian, feminist, single mother whose spirituality is closer to New Age and Buddhism than Christianity." It seems that virtually everything that makes you who you are is something that fundamentalists demean and even demonize. Do you think that at least you share spirituality and they might be accepting of that? My sense is that people on the hard right are not particularly "spiritual" and often cover their fears and bigotry with a robe of religion. They are generally quite intolerant of any brand of religion that is not theirs. Perhaps, in part, you share a weakness with many of us on the left, a syndrome I call "hyper-tolerance." Since we tend to feel that it's important to be respectful of views different from our own, we assume (or hope) that if we're nice and reach out, others will be accepting of us. I think I finally and fully accepted the fact that this is an exercise in futility with theocrats when James Dobson's son, Ryan, published a book titled Be Intolerant. While in most areas and with most people tolerance may be desirable, I think we have to draw the line at being tolerant of intolerance from whatever side it comes. Otherwise we're acting like abused spouses and risk defining ourselves by the views of the abuser.

I wonder about your experiences with people on the "political left" that have given you the impression that you can't speak out and would be rejected because of your spirituality. Haven't seen that with people here or that I know personally or on other blogs such as Street Prophets . It's certainly true that some liberals are rather caustic about religion but I think this is partly a reaction to the Religious Right who have given "Christianity," - and religion generally - a bad name. Some people on the left who tend to paint everyone with a broad brush really don't enough information to be able to discriminate. They need help with that - probably a much better investment of energy than trying to convert confirmed theocrats.

Re: the "hole" in our society left by the absence of religion, I wonder if you have evidence for that or if you've bought the fundamentalists' diagnosis of our societal ills. In actuality, the US is a more religious culture than most developed countries and I know of no convincing data to suggest that less religious countries are burdened by a sense of emptiness. Further, it's a mistake to assume that secularists are particularly empty, lacking in values, see you as an enemy or have more difficulty coping with 9-11, Katrina, or other disasters that befall us than people who are religious. And secularists might be a bit put off if you imply that. Or imply that they are forcing you to lie or ridiculing you.

Some fear in the country is the expected outcome of real events but it has been amplified way out of proportion by an administration that has used it to control and delude citizens, including the religious right, who have further amplified it because that is who they are and it fits with an apocalyptic world view. This is precisely the kind of authoritarian mindset that makes people vulnerable to totalitarian control. It's an interesting phenomenon: fundementalists/authoritarians are fearful but deal with it by being aggressive and trying to instill fear in others. If challenged, they adopt a defensive posture and say they are persecuted. Thus their targets tend to end up either afraid of them and giving them what they want or feeling guilty because they have resisted. If we accept either of their alternatives, we are lost. We cannot be intimidated or feel guilty; we need to protect ourselves and fight back. Rational, critical thinking is essential to resisting this control and making plans to take our country back.

by Psyche on Sat Jan 21, 2006 at 12:27:42 AM EST

a) The fact that dominionism, especially the particular flavours of dominionism practiced in pente and "charismatic" neopentecostal groups, is coercive and spiritually abusive

b) There is quite a bit of evidence (if one goes to the very root of dominionism, the "Christian Reconstructionist" movements among "fundamentalist Baptist" groups and "dominion theology" in pente groups (especially the Assemblies of God and the "independent" neopentecostal groups)) that dominionism itself can be argued to be an extension of coercive and abusive practices that are endemic in those particular religious movements

c) The fact that the dominionist movement is using the fear of others to legislate abusive and coercive tactics into the very letter of the law and establishing a de facto theocracy run by groups that have frightening parallels to other abusive groups

I speak on this from a rather different perspective than most, I'll admit.  I was raised in an Assemblies church that was (and to large extent still is) the de facto center of the dominionist movement in my state.  I survived 26 years of religiously motivated abuse (including physical, mental, emotional and spiritual) from both the church and from parents who were quite convinced they were doing the "right thing"; to this day, I dare not ever use my real name on forums where I post in regards to dominionism nor do I dare ever "out" myself to my family as either bi or pagan (much less that I am essentially a bi man in a woman's body who is a very, very eclectic pagan!) because I could be at "real life" risk of harm--at the least by people in my church stalking and harassing me, and possibly even via involuntary exorcism.  My family has enough of a documented history of attempting "annointings" and deathbed conversions (both by my mom directly and especially by the pastor of the church I'm walking away from) that I'm investigating legal options to specifically exclude anyone from the church I walked away from being involved in any care, end-of-life decision making, etc. and am even investigating methods to essentially prevent anyone from that church contacting me if I am in hospital.

One of the things I began to realise (when I started working with anti-censorship and anti-hate groups against dominionists) is that--again, I can't speak for the SBC but with the pentes in particular--the tactics that are used by dominionists are, very often, almost identical to those used by other abusive groups like Scientology, Aum Shinrikyo, the Moonies, etc.  (Yes, this even includes political movements trying to establish theocracies--Scientology, Aum, and the Moonies all have theologies that essentially call for theocracies to be established by any  means necessary.  The Moonies have even explicitly helped non-Moonie dominionist groups.)

In my case, it's not the spirituality that bugs me.  It's the abuse inherent in dominionism.  It hurts other people, it hurts its own members longterm, it gravely harms kids raised in it (sometimes to the point that they can't function outside of dominionist society--which is why the pressure to isolate and indoctrinate kids is especially worrisome to me).  It is a system based almost entirely on hatred and fear designed to keep people in control, where people are alternately "love-bombed" and terrified out of their minds to keep them in line, keep them from questioning, and keep them supplying money and resources (including "sweat equity") to their cause.  And because they are playing off base emotions like fear, anger and the need for comfort and protection, logic often has little to do with it.  (There's a reason so many dominionist groups use "Family" and "Heritage" in their names--groups like Focus on the Family are focusing on the fear that Something Bad could happen to your family and using that as a tool for recruitment and indoctrination, and lovebombing people by saying "We can keep your family safe from all the bad stuff out there".  Very much reptilian-brain stuff.)

This is one reason I have posted a lot on the specifically spiritually abusive tactics used by dominionist groups--the tactics are the same used by other spiritually abusive groups that don't wrap up the abusive methods in the Bible (and really, that's all they are doing--preaching abuse and wrapping it up in the very book that Christians hold to be the Word of God).  The problem isn't Christianity at all.  The problem is that they are abusive and they want to mandate that abuse in law, and they give justifications for that abuse by twisting the Bible.

This is one reason I don't refer to dominionism as particularly Christian.  To be honest, I see dominion theology (as practiced in pente churches, and which is being spread to the SBC and mainstream churches) as, well...to put it bluntly, cultic.  Spiritually abusive.  (People are less likely to term it a spiritually abusive group, largely because the dominionist movement itself is large and includes several large denominations of Protestant "Christianity".)  Pushers of dominion theology are pushers of a religion of hate that is at its core the same as many, many other spiritually abusive movements, and covering it with a veneer of twisted Scripture.

One of my hopes I've had (in posting examples of how "scripture twisting" occurs, the abusive practices, etc.) is that mainstream, spiritual Christianity--what I refer to as "sane Christianity"--can use this to show that what is being practiced by dominionists is not Christian.  Heck, a lot of what I've posted from (especially regarding the history of dominion theology) has been from various Christian apologetics sites because that's some of the best resources--and sometimes, the only resources--out there documenting this.

I myself DO think there's a role for the spiritual Christian in fighting dominionism.  In fact, to be honest, I think a huge part of whether or not dominionism actually "wins" is going to depend on mainstream Christianity--the sane, spiritual Christians who are sick to death of seeing the Word of God warped by the dominionists--getting mad enough to start raising holy hell and indulging in a bit of "spiritual warfare" against their tactics on their own.  (This is why I am so encouraged by the pastors of 34 churches filing IRS complaints against the two churches at the center of the Ohio Restoration Movement.  If there were more of this, both from pastors and from congregations saying "NO MORE" we would have the dominionists on the run.)

I in fact was actually encouraged to post on dominionism and my experiences in a dominionist church by someone whom I respect very much--enough to consider him my brother, really.  He is bi, is also trans, and--of note--is also Catholic.  (Yes, he does disagree re the Church's position on homosexuality and transgendered persons.  There are aspects of church theology he very much believes in, however.)  In fact, he suggested in part I write so that it could be distributed in churches to show people that dominionism is not a thing of God.  So that people could see what they were really supporting if they supported groups like Focus on the Family or the American Family Association.  To teach people who were confirmed Christians, who wanted to follow in the footsteps of Jesus, who actually thought on a daily basis what Jesus would do in a situation--to warn them of the false prophets in their midst, so to speak.

I'll say it now to all of you folks in "sane Christianity"--the Catholics, the mainstream Christians, the conservative Evangelicals who have a real problem with things like the AFA being promoted in your churches--you guys are going to make or break the fight against dominionist hijacking of Christianity and of the country.  Seriously.  The more you can educate, teach, get your groups "fired up for God" against the dominionists who would use the very word of God as a mere veneer for a culture and religion of hatred and fear and manipulation--the better chance we ALL are going to have.  Seriously.

I myself am probably never going to be comfortable in a church or consider myself Christian (yes, I respect Jesus deeply.  I've just been, sadly, too badly burned) but I think it's going to be the Christians who are going to need to fight the hardest.  Don't let other folks end up like me.  Run the moneylenders and theocrats out of the temples, out of the storehouses.  Teach your people that these groups are not things of God.  Show them the way.  As the Dine' might put it, show them a path of beauty.

by dogemperor on Sat Jan 21, 2006 at 03:37:20 PM EST

It is difficult discussing US society and/or policy from a rational or logical perspective and having your point of view dismissed as "secular" because of ridiculous arguments and/or fears. When did secular become a negative term? Many deeply religious people are secular when it comes to government or policy.

Another point to consider:

Does NASA consult with alien abductees or alien channelers before a launch? Do homebuilders consult with ghosthunters before building? Of course not, but that is how it comes across to some secular advocates when debating or discussing morality and culture when religion or spirituality are thrown into the discussion.

by rational on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 05:26:47 PM EST

Yes, I also perceive a hole - or holes - in American culture. I do not watch television, I buy few things because I want less and I can repair the things I own. I acknowledge that, in how I live my life, I have much in common  with many a Christian right homeschooling family.

Along one axis, I share values with many on the Christian right who endeavour to live simply, to be self reliant, to live apart from the grotesque material excess of American consumer culture.

On another axis, I differ - well - fundamentally - in beliefs and values I share with you and others on this site -  in my unwillingness to forcibly impose my religious or spiritual faith ( or lack thereof ) on others - my belief in religious liberty - and in my support for the rights of minorities within society, my support for Democratic pluralism.

by Bruce Wilson on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 06:42:46 PM EST

...we can show our fellow Americans that it is possible to seek spirituality and intellectual honesty at the same time. As Silver suggests in her diary, "The Lesbian and the Fundamentalist," we can build community around people who want it all -- spirituality, morality, and intellectual integrity.