Nobody Likes a Liar: Rick Warren's John Hagee Moment ?
Bruce Wilson printable version print page     Bookmark and Share
Sun Apr 12, 2009 at 11:22:16 AM EST
Experience has taught Rick Warren that he can get away with holding up Hitler youth, to his church members, as a model of dedication to a cause. But, Warren may just have gone too far, because nobody likes a liar. As Larry King declared on Larry King Live, "No matter what you think of Rick Warren, he's an extraordinary guy." Warren is indeed extra-ordinary, because ordinary Christian sensibility-as defined by the Ten Commandments that have helped shape Judaism and it's daughter religions, Christianity and Islam-would commonly hold that it's at the very least unseemly to lie. Rick Warren appears to be under the impression that it's possible in this day and age to be filmed espousing one position, then declare on national television, that he had never done anything of the sort. And, why might Rick Warren think so ? Well, John Hagee got away with as much - though Hagee was careful in his statements to avoid, in strict terms, technically lying. Activists such as Pam Spaulding are rightfully holding Rick Warren's big anti-gay ego to the fire for one of the few things that might just knock the mega-evangelist off his global perch.
As Pam Spaulding sums it up:

"Oh the joy of getting busted lying on international TV and having to do serious damage control. My post on Tuesday, "Rick Warren lies about his homobigotry on Larry King Live," was picked up by Huff Post and created a buzz for  pointing out that on the man who delivered the invocation at the President's inaugural, Rick Warren, the spiritual leader of Saddleback church, flat-out lied about his support for Prop 8. A recap from the CNN transcript..."

WARREN: During the whole Proposition 8 thing, I never once went to a meeting, never once issued a statement, never -- never once even gave an endorsement in the two years Prop 8 was going.

But of course he seemed to have forgotten his message to his flock prior to the election where he very clearly endorsed Prop 8:

WARREN: Here's an interesting thing: there are about 2% of Americans are homosexual, gay, lesbian people. We should not let 2% of the population determine -- to change a definition of marriage that has been supported by every single culture and every single religion for 5,000 years. This is not even just a Christian issue, it is a humanitarian and human issue, that God created marriage for the purpose of family, love and procreation. I urge you to support Proposition 8 and to pass that on.

John Hagee got away with his wholesale attempts to revise the date on which he gave his late 2005 "God sent a hunter. Hitler was a hunter." sermon that I helped bring to public attention last year. In the ensuing media hullabuloo, Hagee first claimed he was being roasted for something he had said "decades ago." In a letter of pseudo-apology to the ADL, Hagee put the date at the late 1990's. But at that time his ministry was still selling DVD's of the notorious sermon.

So, it's not all that surprising that Rick Warren thought he could lie shamelessly on Larry King Live and get away with it, but if there's one value shared among Christian and non-Christian alike it's this: nobody likes a liar.

I hope people followup on this. Share it and give it airtime, especially among his supporters in the right wing, for it appears that he is less than genuine in his opposition to gay marriage, when he can tell Larry King that he wasn't fighting it, but personally opposed, and shared that with someone close to him who asked his opinion. I appears that both sides of this debate could be offended by what he had to say, as well as people who just plain want people to be real, saying what they mean and meaning what they say. My own position, is also not completely clear, as I passionately believe that the best pattern is marriage between one man and one woman, but believe that those in a committed relationship should have the right to marry. We also have to recognize the historical patterns of polygamy as well as the contemporary practice of "serial marriages" all which are outside by personal preference of one man and one woman. The question reminds we of the question of the seven brothers, all marrying their brothers widow. "In the resurrection, whose wife will she be?" and Jesus with a smile and a shake of his head says. "You greatly error, not understanding the nature of the resurrection, for in heaven there is no marriage." So many of our battles are over earthly things, and show our lack of understanding of the kingdom of God's Grace.

by chaplain on Sun Apr 12, 2009 at 03:40:02 PM EST
I don't know that there is as good an argument for polygamous marriage (in this day and age) as there is for gay marriage.

While there is an argument historically for polygamy (it's been practiced for thousands of years) it developed out of the belief that women are chattel -- property to be owned -- and certainly expected to be subservient to their husband.

That is still true today, and while I would concede there are a few women who quite happily marry into such situations, there is plenty of evidence that the cults who practice it have to engage in a lot of grooming (i.e brainwashing) of girls and young women so they are receptive when the time comes for them to be married.

Just as we would never, as a society, legally protect arranged marriage (another longstanding institution in some culture) I don't believe we will ever sanction polygamous marriages, and I don't believe we should either. It would be a large step backwards for women's rights.

by tacitus on Sun Apr 12, 2009 at 09:14:32 PM EST

Just a guess.

by Bruce Wilson on Sun Apr 12, 2009 at 09:51:41 PM EST

Rick Warren was a no-show for ABC's This Week with George Stephanopolis this morning -- he was supposed to be the only guest, but canceled at the very last minute, citing "exhaustion" as the reason.

Now, that could be true, but it was awfully convenient that he had an excuse to back out of one of the few shows he would probably agree to appear on where he would not necessarily get an easy ride.  (All Larry King does is puffery, which is why he stays in business.)

by tacitus on Sun Apr 12, 2009 at 09:03:03 PM EST

I have pictures from George Bush Sr.'s 80th birthday, with John Hagee posing alongside Condi Rice, Dick Cheney, Bush Sr., Randy Travis, and... Larry King. It seemed very chummy.

I agree with your analysis.

by Bruce Wilson on Sun Apr 12, 2009 at 09:41:43 PM EST

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