More on the Pre-Netroots Nation Pie Fight
Frederick Clarkson printable version print page     Bookmark and Share
Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 03:07:04 PM EST
The other day, I reported about the pies launched in response to the description of one of the first sessions to be announced for Netroots Nation.

What had precipitated the aerial display was my posting the panel description. I happen to be on the panel, and like the other panelists, are there to surface objections to a New Progressive Vision of Church and State to be presented by law professor Bruce Ledewitz, of Duquesne University in Pittsburgh.  Science blogger PZ Myers, for one, called the proposal "bizarre," said it "reeks of the the Jim Wallis/Amy Sullivan camp of liberal theocrats, although neither is actually on the panel," and headlined his post, "Netroots Nation Dives into Inanity."

Professor Ledewitz has responded at his blog, Hallowed Secularism.

I will quote from his response presently, but first, for those who are just joining the us, here is the session description that launched a thousand pies:

A New Progressive Vision for Church and State
    date and time TBA

    The old liberal vision of a total separation of religion from politics has been discredited. Despite growing secularization, a secular progressive majority is still impossible, and a new two-part approach is needed--one that first admits that there is no political wall of separation. Voters must be allowed, without criticism, to propose policies based on religious belief. But, when government speaks and acts, messages must be universal. The burden is on religious believers, therefore, to explain public references like "under God" in universal terms. For example, the word "God" can refer to the ceaseless creativity of the universe and the objective validity of human rights. Promoting and accepting religious images as universal will help heal culture-war divisions and promote the formation of a broad-based progressive coalition.

(Critiquing the proposal will be ACLU attorney Vic Walczak (who litigated Kitzmiller vs. Dover, the landmark "intelligent design" case); Rev. Kyoki Roberts, a prominent Zen Buddhist, Rev. Chuck Freeman, a Unitarian Universalist minister from Austin, Texas, and radio broadcaster; and me.)

Ledewitz responded to the controversy, which has spread widely in the blogosphere, by adding new elements:

None of this comes as any surprise to me. I just hope people will remember two things. First, the words "under God" are in the Pledge of Allegiance. I did not put them there. No court will take them out. No national politician will support taking the words out. If you think gun control is a losing issue, or legalization of marijuana, or gay marriage, try drumming up support for taking on God.

I am proposing a reinterpretation of religious language in which "God" stands as a symbol for a quite naturalistic understanding of reality and the Ten Commandments stands as the promise of universal human rights. The issue for me is relativism and nihilism, which I oppose, but which many secularists also oppose. To put this another way, why isn't the Declaration of Independence unconstitutional? Answer, because grounding human rights in a Creator is a political assertion about rights, not a theological assertion about a Creator-God.

Second, for all the controversy, secularists have to be able to live actual lives. This means thinking about the very same things that religious believers think about. I tried to capture that in my book, Hallowed Secularism. Reverence is a human term, not a religious one.

While I certainly have my own thoughts about all this, I want to let Ledewitz' speak for himself here. But I do think that this entire episode, regardless of the merits of Ledewitz's ideas, or the responses to them, before, during and after our panel, will say a great deal about the state of progressive discourse on this essential subject.  




Display:
The US Pledge of Allegiance was, of course, written in 1892 by Francis Bellamy, and thus has nothing directly to do with the intent of the founders of American government. And, the "under God" bit wasn't added until 1954, after a Knights of Columbus campaign. The "Bellamy Salute" is an interesting aspect to this story, one which I suspect might make Mr. Ledewitz a tad uncomfortable.

If Ledewitz is arguing the slide towards civic Christianity cannot be opposed or argued he might want to study the "Indian River incident."

Meanwhile, we could redefine "God" as a rock, a chair, a fruit bowl, or an abstract concept but that would not change popular conceptions about "God."

For now, I'll leave the Ten Commandments issue alone.

by Bruce Wilson on Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 03:39:07 PM EST


The statement thickens the plot.

The first paragraph is questionable on the facts.  A federal appeals court may yet rule "Under God" in the Pledge unconstitutional, please see here.  I wasn't aware that gay marriage was necessarily a losing issue.  Prop 8 barely passed in California, and several states have choosen to recognize gay marriages, though many more have banned it.

The second paragraph is equally puzzling.  The Declaration of Indepenence isn't unconstitutional because, well, it isn't a law or regulation, but a historical document.  The Ten Commandments sure seems like a sectarian religious document to me.  Grounding the idea of human rights in a divine Creator sure sounds like a theological idea to me.

I gather that Mr. Ledewitz is a religious naturalist, a respectable opinion, I think (for a review of a recent book on the subject, see here).  But his views on church state separation, at least on the surface, seem pretty weird.

-------------
"I believe in a President whose views on religion are his own private affair" - JFK, Address to the Greater Houston Ministerial Association
by hardindr on Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 01:01:34 PM EST

it is a pre-constitutional document.  The Declaration of Independence was expressive not only of the collective will of the representatives of the colonists, but also to the state (England) from which the colonists were declaring independence.  England was a Christian state with a State Church (as most States had been up to that time).  Language about rights endowed by a creator helped build a case in that context.

The constitution came later, as an expression of how America would be a new kind of State, including separating Church from State.

by Rusty Pipes on Sat Jun 27, 2009 at 05:44:15 PM EST
Parent



The best feature of https://uk.eliteassignmenthelp.com/do-my-assignments it is the security measures they have included. Because of this, I'm happy. Definitely no complaints!

by Josiah on Tue Nov 15, 2022 at 11:48:19 AM EST


WWW Talk To Action


Cognitive Dissonance & Dominionism Denial
There is new research on why people are averse to hearing or learning about the views of ideological opponents. Based on evaluation of five......
By Frederick Clarkson (374 comments)
Will the Air Force Do Anything To Rein In Its Dynamic Duo of Gay-Bashing, Misogynistic Bloggers?
"I always get nervous when I see female pastors/chaplains. Here is why everyone should as well: "First, women are not called to be pastors,......
By Chris Rodda (195 comments)
The Legacy of Big Oil
The media is ablaze with the upcoming publication of David Grann's book, Killers of the Flower Moon. The shocking non fiction account of the......
By wilkyjr (110 comments)
Gimme That Old Time Dominionism Denial
Over the years, I have written a great deal here and in other venues about the explicitly theocratic movement called dominionism -- which has......
By Frederick Clarkson (101 comments)
History Advisor to Members of Congress Completely Twists Jefferson's Words to Support Muslim Ban
Pseudo-historian David Barton, best known for his misquoting of our country's founders to promote the notion that America was founded as a Christian nation,......
By Chris Rodda (113 comments)
"Christian Fighter Pilot" Calls First Lesbian Air Force Academy Commandant a Liar
In a new post on his "Christian Fighter Pilot" blog titled "BGen Kristin Goodwin and the USAFA Honor Code," Air Force Lieutenant Colonel Jonathan......
By Chris Rodda (144 comments)
Catholic Right Leader Unapologetic about Call for 'Death to Liberal Professors' -- UPDATED
Today, Donald Trump appointed C-FAM Executive Vice President Lisa Correnti to the US Delegation To UN Commission On Status Of Women. (C-FAM is a......
By Frederick Clarkson (126 comments)
Controlling Information
     Yesterday I listened to Russ Limbaugh.  Rush advised listeners it would be best that they not listen to CNN,MSNBC, ABC, CBS and......
By wilkyjr (118 comments)
Is Bannon Fifth-Columning the Pope?
In December 2016 I wrote about how White House chief strategist Steve Bannon, who likes to flash his Catholic credentials when it comes to......
By Frank Cocozzelli (250 comments)
Ross Douthat's Hackery on the Seemingly Incongruous Alliance of Bannon & Burke
Conservative Catholic writer Ross Douthat has dissembled again. This time, in a February 15, 2017 New York Times op-ed titled The Trump Era's Catholic......
By Frank Cocozzelli (64 comments)
`So-Called Patriots' Attack The Rule Of Law
Every so often, right-wing commentator Pat Buchanan lurches out of the far-right fever swamp where he has resided for the past 50 years to......
By Rob Boston (161 comments)
Bad Faith from Focus on the Family
Here is one from the archives, Feb 12, 2011, that serves as a reminder of how deeply disingenuous people can be. Appeals to seek......
By Frederick Clarkson (176 comments)
The Legacy of George Wallace
"One need not accept any of those views to agree that they had appealed to real concerns of real people, not to mindless, unreasoning......
By wilkyjr (70 comments)
Betsy DeVos's Mudsill View of Public Education
My Talk to Action colleague Rachel Tabachnick has been doing yeoman's work in explaining Betsy DeVos's long-term strategy for decimating universal public education. If......
By Frank Cocozzelli (80 comments)
Prince and DeVos Families at Intersection of Radical Free Market Privatizers and Religious Right
This post from 2011 surfaces important information about President-Elect Trump's nominee for Secretary of Education, Betsy DeVos. -- FC Erik Prince, Brother of Betsy......
By Rachel Tabachnick (218 comments)

Respect for Others? or Political Correctness?
The term "political correctness" as used by Conservatives and Republicans has often puzzled me: what exactly do they mean by it? After reading Chip Berlin's piece here-- http://www.talk2action.org/story/2016/7/21/04356/9417 I thought about what he explained......
MTOLincoln (253 comments)
Fear
What I'm feeling now is fear.  I swear that it seems my nightmares are coming true with this new "president".  I'm also frustrated because so many people are not connecting all the dots! I've......
ArchaeoBob (107 comments)
"America - love it or LEAVE!"
I've been hearing that and similar sentiments fairly frequently in the last few days - far FAR more often than ever before.  Hearing about "consequences for burning the flag (actions) from Trump is chilling!......
ArchaeoBob (211 comments)
"Faked!" Meme
Keep your eyes and ears open for a possible move to try to discredit the people openly opposing Trump and the bigots, especially people who have experienced terrorism from the "Right"  (Christian Terrorism is......
ArchaeoBob (165 comments)
More aggressive proselytizing
My wife told me today of an experience she had this last week, where she was proselytized by a McDonald's employee while in the store. ......
ArchaeoBob (163 comments)
See if you recognize names on this list
This comes from the local newspaper, which was conservative before and took a hard right turn after it was sold. Hint: Sarah Palin's name is on it!  (It's also connected to Trump.) ......
ArchaeoBob (169 comments)
Unions: A Labor Day Discussion
This is a revision of an article which I posted on my personal board and also on Dailykos. I had an interesting discussion on a discussion board concerning Unions. I tried to piece it......
Xulon (156 comments)
Extremely obnoxious protesters at WitchsFest NYC: connected to NAR?
In July of this year, some extremely loud, obnoxious Christian-identified protesters showed up at WitchsFest, an annual Pagan street fair here in NYC.  Here's an account of the protest by Pagan writer Heather Greene......
Diane Vera (130 comments)
Capitalism and the Attack on the Imago Dei
I joined this site today, having been linked here by Crooksandliars' Blog Roundup. I thought I'd put up something I put up previously on my Wordpress blog and also at the DailyKos. As will......
Xulon (330 comments)
History of attitudes towards poverty and the churches.
Jesus is said to have stated that "The Poor will always be with you" and some Christians have used that to refuse to try to help the poor, because "they will always be with......
ArchaeoBob (148 comments)
Alternate economy medical treatment
Dogemperor wrote several times about the alternate economy structure that dominionists have built.  Well, it's actually made the news.  Pretty good article, although it doesn't get into how bad people could be (have been)......
ArchaeoBob (90 comments)
Evidence violence is more common than believed
Think I've been making things up about experiencing Christian Terrorism or exaggerating, or that it was an isolated incident?  I suggest you read this article (linked below in body), which is about our great......
ArchaeoBob (214 comments)

More Diaries...




All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective companies. Comments, posts, stories, and all other content are owned by the authors. Everything else © 2005 Talk to Action, LLC.