Atheists banned over disruption
ArchaeoBob printable version print page     Bookmark and Share
Wed Feb 23, 2011 at 11:07:13 AM EST
Today there is a disturbing news item in the paper regarding the fight for separation of church and state.
http://www.theledger.com/article/20110222/NEWS/110229946/1410?Tit

le=Atheist-Arrested-at-Polk-School-Board-Meeting

The leader of Atheists of Florida (John Kieffer) was arrested for disrupting the Polk County School Board meeting yesterday.  He shouted out "Prayer has no place in government! Prayer has no place in government!" between the "invocation" and the beginning of the meeting.  He'd just been rebuked for not being silent (spoke to the Atheists of Florida legal coordinator) during the prayer (which was scheduled before the official start of the School Board meeting), and I'm sure he responded in frustration and anger over being rebuked.

I'm pretty upset at this.  He shouldn't have shouted, and what he did gave the "Good Christians" in the county something they can use to drum up more support for their forcing their "Christianity" on the rest of us.  It's already being used to call for more political support for the school board - and they're calling for returning the prayers as an "official" part of the school board meeting.  Now Kieffer and the legal coordinator (and possibly they will extend this to the group) are banned from the meetings.  VERY COUNTERPRODUCTIVE!!!  I can understand the frustration he must have been feeling, but there are times and places to protest and times and places to keep one's mouth shut, and this was one of the latter.  I could have told him that they were looking for any reason to (mis)use the law against him, and now it's going to be harder to monitor the school board for violations of the law.

I'm equally, if not more upset at what is going on in this county.  The efforts to force "Christian" prayers on people are increasing all over the place - I've even gotten quite a few proselytizing attempts by cashiers at major stores and some friends have reported having the same experience.  The practice of overt "Christian" (Pentecostal/Dominionist/Fundamentalist) prayers as part of government meetings has been going on here for years, along with their persecution of non-"Christians" (including persecuting mainstream Christians like Roman Catholics).  Now that they're being called on it, they are becoming more militant and insistent.  My friends (atheist and not) have mentioned receiving persecution because of belonging to religious minorities, including being denied service when people found out.  I fear physical violence will soon come, because of what my wife and I have been through.  We have already had several things happen to us: burned shop, racist graffiti, pets vanishing/dying mysteriously, threats to family members, preached against in megachurches, and all connected to my political activities and words.  I wouldn't put it past the local dominionists to do more because the very things we've experienced and worse have happened to others around the country (possibly establishing a pattern).  Kieffer may end up making things far worse for us personally by his mistake, as we have to live here (no way to move).  He can go home (I think he's from northern Florida), but the repercussions of his actions will remain and I think I'm justified in fearing those repercussions.

In this fight for our freedom, we need to always consider what our words and actions will do.  There are times and places for overt protest, and there are times where a soft word at the right time and place is far more effective.   The "Good Christians" already consider this a form of violence against them, although it was really non-violent and a legitimate complaint.  In dealing with those types and in this sort of situation, you have to have every i dotted and every t crossed, and have to make sure everything is just right, otherwise you can make things worse.  I imagine that Kieffers only whispered to his legal coordinator, and that was just what the school board was looking for.  It escalated.

Now he has a fine, is banned from the meetings, and there may be unpleasant repercussions for local people, including those who aren't from his group, yet support separation of church and state.



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Atheists banned over disruption | 21 comments (21 topical, 0 hidden)
That's... (none / 0)
...kind of rude, I suppose.  But, I agree with him.  I'm not offended by "In God We Trust," Christmas Trees on capitol lawns, etc..  But it does rub me the wrong way when people pray at a council meeting for government.  I typically doubt the people who do so actually believe any of it, as capitalist power-grubbing politicians rarely have anything to do with Jesus, and so I find it silly and offensive.

I don't think he was wrong in doing it, I'm not sure the board was wrong in kicking him out for doing so.  I will not have my children indoctrinated with religion.

by OldChaosoftheSun on Thu Feb 24, 2011 at 12:09:33 AM EST

Actually (none / 0)
many of the Council are supposed to be "True Believers".  They think it's imperative that they "Honor Jesus" by praying as part of everything - and it has to be out in the open and overt.

I'm more concerned about the repercussions, although what he said was dead right.  There are a lot of really nasty and dirty things going on in county government, and the way they do things is an attempt to just barely skirt the letter of the law, while shattering the spirit.  Several things about this struck me: (1) They moved the prayers (led by a preacher) to just before the meeting started right after the Atheists of Florida started attending so they couldn't be accused of the prayers being part of an official function, (2) The meeting wasn't formally started, but they had the gall to rebuke Kieffer for talking, and (3) when it was pointed out that the meeting hadn't been called to order yet, they immediately used the gavel.  Not only that, but they expelled him for causing a disruption - when the meeting hadn't been called to order yet.  Finally, it appears he was arrested for resisting arrest.

I'd like to see the formal charges.  I bet they're all bogus - and this county is bad about bogus charges (2/3 of the "encounters" I've had over the last 33 years were bogus and for things like broken taillights that weren't).

by ArchaeoBob on Thu Feb 24, 2011 at 10:23:56 AM EST
Parent

Yeah... (none / 0)
..."true believers"...

Most people don't ever seem to grasp the concept of creating a vast facade among the highest authorities of having morality - they've none faith nor morals.  They're just preparing an inquisition.

by OldChaosoftheSun on Fri Feb 25, 2011 at 09:47:57 AM EST
Parent




They preached... (none / 0)
...against you at church?  What did you do?  I've received some serious intimidation techniques in my small town from the local Christian cults, seen them kill people, and received death threats, but, I don't know that my name has actually been mentioned in sermons.

Good luck, you'll have trouble finding more than just me to believe you on that stuff - most people don't think Christian persecution of non-Christians happens much in this country, when, in reality, it's pretty vicious and violent.

by OldChaosoftheSun on Thu Feb 24, 2011 at 12:12:28 AM EST

I've written letters to the editor (none / 0)
covering topics such as stating one can be Christian and accept evolution, and defending GLBT people.  I've also stood up for racial minorities several times and against mistreatment of poor people, and they really don't like that.  I've also pointed out the errors in their ideas about economy.

I'm told that other liberals in this county sometimes get preached against too... if they argue against any dominionist goal.  One retired UU minister in this area is especially hated.

Preaching against people is a common activity in Pentecostal/Dominionist/Fundamentalist churches.  It's evil and wrong, but they do it - it's meant to coerce people into obedience and to get people to treat the "sinner" badly so that they feel pressure to "repent".

by ArchaeoBob on Thu Feb 24, 2011 at 10:33:20 AM EST
Parent



To OldChaosoftheSun (none / 0)
Have you documented the violence you observed?  Have you reached out to your local ACLU chapter, or perhaps your local Unitarian pastor, for advice?  Thus stuff needs to be documented and exposed.  If you have not done so already, please do whatever you can to find someone near your locale who can help you.


by Diane Vera on Thu Feb 24, 2011 at 06:13:00 AM EST
I second what Diane says!!! (none / 0)
I'm trying to document the things I've been put through, although it has been difficult.  We need to tell about the things we've experienced at the hands of the P/D/Fs, and if possible document them.  I have documentation of the fire (can't PROVE it was deliberately set), the graffiti, and my wife has witnessed several of the things that have happened and can testify to them.

I'm hoping to get a statement from a friend who observed my being internet stalked, documenting specifically that I WAS stalked.  I'm also trying to look into some of the things that have happened in the past, and hope I still have some of the papers laying around.  

I find it irritating that we have to do this, but needing documentation is a fact of life in this country.  Too many people don't have a problem with telling lies.

The more we share what we've experienced (and if lucky document those things as well), the more people will listen to us.  A pattern is established and with enough accounts, even anecdotal evidence can become significant.


by ArchaeoBob on Thu Feb 24, 2011 at 10:58:40 AM EST
Parent

Re: What I saw... (none / 0)
...unfortunately the tactics employed were so fast, underhanded, and reminiscent of black ops that It's pretty hard to document what occurred.  I wrote the FBI many times regarding threats to my person regarding an international pedophile ring I was raised in operated by YWAM and the Assemblies of God which also was using women from an Assemblies of God operated Local Porn Site to target people in my area.  I was threatened with death, constantly harassed, intimidated by old church leaders and other church members.  It's pretty difficult to prove any of it, so I've given up trying, and the methods of intimidation against me were so extreme and traumatizing that I've just given up on life I guess.

"The Call DC 2000 Board of Directors" contains information about the ringleader of the child trafficking who was arrested briefly then released.

Been over 2 1/2 years since I wrote the FBI with information I had regarding it, they just tortured me.

by OldChaosoftheSun on Fri Feb 25, 2011 at 09:54:44 AM EST
Parent

It sounds (none / 0)
like you also encountered a strong dose of "But it's a CHURCH, it can't be THAT BAD!!!"

(Retch.  Puke.)

I appreciated Bruce's suggestion of reminding people of Jonestown and Jones when they come out with that sort of cr*p.

by ArchaeoBob on Fri Feb 25, 2011 at 10:37:16 AM EST
Parent

Jonestown (none / 0)
Yeah, Jonestown came out of my region in Northern California.  

It's the same stuff, serial killing cults, this time with pedophile rings and pornography rings and they don't kill their own people - they kill their enemies.

Brutal mind-control cult that I was raised in, going to find a way to off myself soon I think.  I can't deal with having seen 25 people murdered and not being able to prove it.

by OldChaosoftheSun on Fri Feb 25, 2011 at 07:10:45 PM EST
Parent

Nothing nearly that severe at all (none / 0)
but  I can relate.  I just wish I could make connection to a couple of people I met many years ago - one informed me that they'd blocked me from getting a couple of good paying jobs (bolt out of the blue) and the other could possibly provide evidence (at least testimony) that they were screwing with us as late as several years after I walked.  

One more death would mean that they won (and they're mean enough to have that as a goal).  

Injustice can be dealt with in a couple of ways... by accepting it (big mistake) or fighting against it.  In either case, severe depression often is a problem.  I may never find the justice we need, but at the same time what I was put through is behind my fighting against dominionism.  I don't want anyone else to have their life shipwrecked and destroyed as mine has been.


by ArchaeoBob on Fri Feb 25, 2011 at 08:56:52 PM EST
Parent

Eh... (none / 0)
...They've already won, molested between 15-30 kids over a decade with multiple men and got away with it without a hitch with the DA's Chief Investigator's stamp of approval.

by OldChaosoftheSun on Sat Feb 26, 2011 at 01:05:02 PM EST
Parent
Not really (none / 0)
If we give up, they win it all.  As long as we're still alive and still opposing them, they haven't completely won.  I don't know if you've thought of this, but as long as you're alive and know the truth, they are in a precarious situation (and they may know it).  

It's not fun... in fact, life like ours is hell on earth (of their making).  But as long as there is a light, a voice for truth, then the darkness is not completely black.  And their other victims - if they start speaking out loudly, they become lights/voices too, and it pushes back the darkness.

It's not fun, as I've put it, being the "lone stranger" in this society, and blogs like this and a couple of others helps us to make contact and have helped me keep my sanity.  As our stories get told (and people read them), they start to see the pattern - those who have also experienced the hell we have are encouraged to speak out.

Imagine what it would be like if the people you're talking about, the kids, were to suddenly speak out.  Those who were at fault would find themselves in a world of hurt.  You see, child molesters aren't liked in jail/prison.  That could happen!  In fact, it VERY MUCH could happen!!!

Imagine what it would be like to have the cover blown completely off the dominionists... all of their misdeeds, all of their lies, all of their bullsh*t exposed, and right in the faces of the public.  When Joe Sixpack finds out that his 'beloved shepherd/pastor' has been messing around with little children - and he has kids of his own, he's going to not be a happy camper.  If people in a church have been hearing anti-GLBT preaching almost every Sunday, and suddenly their pastor is caught in a compromising same-sex position, it's going to cause all sorts of cognitive dissonance in their minds. If enough people insist that church leaders are doing the very things they preach against (or that goes against their church's doctrines), it's GOING to sink in.  Then they very possibly (even likely) will see through the 'obedience' indoctrination and there goes the apple cart.

I know families who that happened to - youth pastors were pedophiles (a big problem with dominionist churches).  The individual churches shattered and were relatively powerless for a long time.  That could happen to the dominionists - they could even be reduced to the point where they never recover (but I doubt they will ever completely go away).

It will take reaching a critical level of people speaking out, but once that happens, I know we would win.  If we give up, then THEY will win.

Believe me, I know despair and depression very well.  Things have gotten so bad around here that just figuring out what was wrong with our lawnmower (factory replacement part had wrong dimensions) so I could mow the grass provided the impetus for (1) working in and mowing the yard, (2) cleaning the house, (3) filing three more applications for employment (all that was to be found last week, but it does seem to be getting better), as well as (4) having the energy to do additional work on a non-profit research center we're trying to start.  I'd been fighting with that mower on and off for months, and didn't have the money to throw parts at it so had to figure out exactly what was wrong.  This may seem like a tiny thing, but every bit helps.  One tiny thing lifted me enough to do all four things.  I might add having a mowed yard and getting the house cleaned up a little also is helpful, and maybe will allow me (within physical limits) to do even more.  I can only hope.

Sometimes you have to actively look for the little positive things - even a loving purr and nose rub from one of my kitties was enough to lift me up enough to get through another day (on several occasions) and I knew it.

I can only imagine how I'd feel if something really broke our way... or if some justice came for us.  That might also be a good thing to do: imagine what it would be like to have justice!  To have the people exposed!

As long as you're alive, you haven't lost and they haven't completely won.  

Also, I don't know about you, but for me, knowing that others have been in a similar boat is very strengthening and healing.  I'm "pulling' for you... and we need every one in these boats to be pulling together!  In other words... we NEED you!!!

by ArchaeoBob on Sat Feb 26, 2011 at 02:05:10 PM EST
Parent

I appreciate... (none / 0)
...your optimism, however, the children did speak out, there were multiple affidavits filed, the parents kept going to the same churches and the DA's Chief Investigator said that God commands us to forgive him.  The parents are not of the proper caste to speak out in this county, which is heavily dominated by these dominionist goons.  If it were girls, sure, there'd be outrage, but, since it was boys, it's not that big of a deal.

by OldChaosoftheSun on Sat Feb 26, 2011 at 04:49:46 PM EST
Parent

Here's... (none / 0)
...The DA's Chief Investigator praising one of the rapists: http://www.bishop-accountability.org/news2007/05_06/2007_05_31_De ll_LastMolestation.htm

And here is the guy sitting on the Board of Directors in 2000 for Lou Engle's "The Call" with Ted Haggard, Pat Robertson, Loren Cunningham, among others:

http://www.seekgod.ca/thecalldc.htm

...Like I said, I saw 25 people murdered just to terrorize me...  Easier to crash a bus and a plane than kill the victim due to the fact that the latter looks suspicious...

Imagine if you were a blogger, and they hooked IBM's Watson up to the play cart for television and radio - now that's a scary technique.

by OldChaosoftheSun on Sun Feb 27, 2011 at 04:09:39 AM EST
Parent


Here's... (none / 0)
...the Local Organization that has the pastors who ran the child-molestation ring:

http://www.leaderbreakthru.com/pages/the-center-for-transformatio n-studies.php

Notice it's named after the Muthee videos that Rachel talks about: www.talk2action.org/pages/docs/Transformation.pdf  (They taught us Joyner and "spiritual warfare" so it's no doubt it's the same brand)

Here's the people in my area who were murdered:

http://www.christiannewswire.com/news/646579835.html
http://www.kcra.com/news/17630435/detail.html (notice Biblical Crossroads)

Here's Olberman talking about the same Technique employed by Muthee on "Mama Jane:"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S62Z37bIZHk

Also note it was an Assemblies of God church that primarily shielded the molestation ring.

I don't need ex-Christian help.  I need the FBI - but they're pretty damn clear they aren't interested since people only got killed after I wrote them.

by OldChaosoftheSun on Sun Feb 27, 2011 at 04:28:49 AM EST
Parent

Why don't you write something up about it? (none / 0)
Why don't you write up a full report and put it here?  Even if it doesn't bring justice directly, it might get others to tell their story too.  

That would help a lot of people.

(Also don't delete it after you post it, that causes all sorts of technical problems!!!  Several of your posts seem to have been deleted after you put them up and that's not a good thing - e.g. "An Unfortunate Conclusion".)

I wish I could get further investigation into the things I've been put through, just as you do.  People don't listen, or dismiss my complaints as "paranoid!" or "exaggerating!".   Or worse yet, they tell me to take it up with the very people who are the problem.  I actually haven't shared a fraction of the things here that I've experienced... it would be too much and according to my wife, people generally don't like long blogs.  I've been to the politicians regarding a few of the more overt injustices, but the conservatives just dismiss me out of hand (usually with some sort of veiled insult) and the liberals only refer me to their staffers - who only turn me to the programs set in place.   The police?  Don't make me laugh - in many cases they have been part of the problem and not the solution!  (I think I've mentioned it enough times that 2/3 times we get stopped - maybe 12-15 times since I've lived in this county, the reason was bogus.)

What I've been trying to say is that many of us have been there in one way or another, and we are listening and we do care.  Yeah, I can't say I've been in your shoes, but you wouldn't want to be in mine for anything too!!!  So we can try to help each other and help others!!!

By the way, I am NOT an "ex-Christian", although I swear the damned pentecostals/dominionists/fundamentalists are doing their best to drive me away from Christ.  I am a WALKAWAY, and that is a whole different thing altogether.  The closest you could say is that I am an ex-pentecostal, as I renounced that ideology a long time ago.

by ArchaeoBob on Sun Feb 27, 2011 at 09:21:50 AM EST
Parent

If you reply... please start another sub-thread (none / 0)
This is getting a bit narrow.


by ArchaeoBob on Sun Feb 27, 2011 at 09:22:29 AM EST
Parent






OldChaosoftheSun (none / 0)
I am no expert, but I understand that many people question the value of their lives coming out of an experience like yours, and that is a common part of the recovery process.  

While you may need some professional help to find a way that is right for you, I hear that there are also supportive online communities. ExChristian.net is one.  

Meanwhile, please check your email inbox.

ArcheoBob gets it right in a comment below: We need you. And we don't want to lose you.

by Frederick Clarkson on Sat Feb 26, 2011 at 03:19:18 PM EST
Parent





Re: Documenting (none / 0)
Trust me, from someone who has experienced dominionist intimidation, don't even bother obsessing about trying to document it.  Even if someone were to believe you, they wouldn't be able to do anything.  The Federal and State governments are pretty heavily controlled by these people, and there's no way they're going to try anything on you if they think you could ever pose a threat to them.

Imagine if someone kidnapped you, blindfolded you, then drove you out to the woods where they had 25 innocent people, executed them and told you they're doing it because you're an atheist, and then drove you back and dropped you right back where you were.  That would be the most accurate metaphor for what I was subjected to.  Horrifying tactics of intimidation.

by OldChaosoftheSun on Fri Feb 25, 2011 at 09:58:44 AM EST
Parent




Hello (none / 0)
It's disheartening to hear about the incident involving the leader of Atheists of Florida at the Polk County School Board meeting. While I understand his frustration, shouting out during the meeting was counterproductive and gave ammunition to those seeking to impose their beliefs on others.  center for rheumatology The escalating efforts to force "Christian" prayers and the reported persecution of religious minorities in the county are concerning. It's crucial to consider the consequences of our actions and find effective ways to advocate for our rights.

by isabelladom on Fri Jul 07, 2023 at 03:23:13 PM EST

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